Alba can counter zhu if alba has pots and zhu dont have pots. Even though if alba can counter zhu, zhu won’t die because zhu has HG, then zhu will use his stealth all with low tu. Finally alba cant counter him.
Delugazar can counter zhu only if delugazar dont die because of talok death rev (by azra).
I’ve ever used oniblade.
If talok or bitterbeast was awake, I coudnt attack zhu because he got instant shield ally by talok.
If azra was awake, he cannibalized talok then azra & tene got free to double attack and clone. Also, I coudnt attack shu with dreamhunt because he got instant shield ally by talok. If zhu didnt get instant shield ally, he still had HG and ready to stealth all and sneak all.
If zhu still awake, his stealth all was so fast and ready to sneak all.
See, I had another run in with the combo earlier, this time I actually had Delugazar, and amazingly he fell right between Azrazel and zhulong, so he’s perfectly poised to shut it down. And well… Azrazel uses his friggin instant KBN, and jumps behind BB, completely thwarting it. That’s just pathetic. I run the exact thing I’m told will stand up to it, but nope, even THEN I still can’t do a thing about it.
I’d like to point out again for arguments sake, people having the most trouble here are going against teams with those EXACT THREE LIMITED LEGENDS that not everyone has. Zhu is much more reliant on other legends to be effect than Azra is. If you want Azra nerfed, cool. I agree with killerdog, you guys have a better chance of complaining and getting him nerfed than zhu who literally needs multiple conditions to be met to be effective.
I’ve yet to encounter this particular frontline, but after reading the posts here, I’m glad I haven’t. Seems to me that the real problem is Azra, unless I’m mistaken.
I met this shadow trio once and I beat it. Stratustrike one-on-one with Jackal to switch friend and bring in Shiva. I then just knocked back what I wanted to and Zhulong became useless elsewhere in the team where there wasn’t link shadow. I left Azra sat there to wake up and ruined the link shadow so it had no way to charge double bloodcrave. They were in a terrible losing position from then on.
Seriously guys this combo isn’t crazy and even if it is strong it’s not because of Zhulong. I think Zhulong creates the backbone of the link shadow strategy and is a great monster in the way it’s designed. There are numerous ways to deal with it and it relies heavily on having 3+ shadow monsters out in order to do anything.
The real problem here is Azra. High speed with a quick cannibalise going into double bloodcrave. This offers brilliant setup along with the fastest blood sweeping in the game. A couple of months ago I called it “verging on overpowered” and I still agree with that, especially because of the stun revenge. It even has instant knockback next lol! However, since it is possible to counter in a few ways I think that maybe we shouldn’t all panic and jump to nerfing straight away. Just please let’s not start pointing the finger at various things saying “this has to change” because we could end up spoiling some monsters. Zhulong NEEDS his 50TU link stealth all because it’s his setup for damage just like poison touch is for poison eater. If it was 70TU he’d be super susceptible to being turned into a dead weight by the other team simply hitting him once every 50-60s. He would probably still be quite good but not properly strong and worth making a link shadow team to run him and the others.
P.S. The “best strategy” I’ve seen at top level PvP for the last few months usually involves using Motor to add a couple of bronzeshells and repulse stun protection. Then you stun what’s left to give your Geo time to backstab through the team and set up four monsters: Goldtail, Chrome, Stun protection, protector (monsters vary a little). At this point we have Goldtail using the ridiculous 34TU potent sleep which pretty much says GG to the opponent.
Did anyone call overpowered to Goldtail’s potent sleep? Not even that it’s so ridiculous in PvE you can win almost everything with that legendary alone? I mean even without the setup people use in their teams for it you just need to accidentally give it a couple of turns and it can put you in a terrible losing position.
Sorry guys but there are various monsters out there which are strong, some almost overpowered in certain combinations. The shadow trio doesn’t break any game mechanics and no individual monster stands out as having moves which are too difficult to counter. Azra has become one of the best, if not the best, front line monsters and that’s it.
Gold tail is no where near as op as zhu people are allowed to complain we had many other legends nerfed for far less
Also you say it needs 50 tu stealth all for it to work is just stupid to compare to tia poison eater that kills one monster this guy kills 4 instantly
All I see is all the zhu users screaming don’t touch my monster that the simple idea of it being discussed hurts you
The forum is a joke
The sad thing is that it’s been like that for some time now.
That aside, perhaps a sec limit on Zhu’s SS (can only be used after 100sec since the monster’s first turn) could be an effective tweak. Still think Azra’s a major problem but I digress.
I defend Zhulong not because I have it but because I have respect for its design and the balance in this game.
I expect the Devs would nerf something when it’s doing something they didn’t intend, not just because people don’t like the power something has. The 50TU link stealth all is a good thing to pick out and question whether it’s too strong. However, I wouldn’t jump to make any statements about it like they’re fact. You make the case for it being too fast, I say that I feel it’s just right for making the intended level of strength and that 70TU would be too weak. Maybe 60TU would be the perfect balance? Or maybe the root of any problems with Zhulong is the secret skill even though it is 160TU and adds +3 to the monster cost maybe it deserves a balance pass.
I was wound up when writing the last post because I left this thread for a while only to come back and see it’s a host of people still going on about things in this shadow trio being too strong. I thought the exact same line “this forum is a joke” but I’m trying to take into account here it’s a lot of opinions and not facts. Some people may not know what they’re talking about but overall we can raise good points. It’s clear by now we won’t all be in agreement so tbh we should speak our peace and then stop writing.
My poison team with a 78% speed sendback couldnt even counter that stealth team, because azra has an insane fast KBN (which also bring him 1TU behind me so i couldnt even attack to remove the stealth). and even if i could bring in the toxic entrance, zhulog is immue.
You all talks about alot of counters, i just cant see it. You mention a counter that is faster the zhulog to remove his stealth (like BB or whatever). Great, you removed his stealth, now he got stealth all at 35 speed, try removing his stealth everytime at that window, or kill him with his HG, while azra is behind with a double bloodcrave charged also insanly fast (or even without azra). His moves and him self are just to fast.
The ONLY viable counter we all have (assuming not all of us have deo) is one on one lines. So when yoy suggest to “tweak” our FL a bit to ciubter it better, you say “put a one on one guy”. But it isnt a little tweak, by puting a one on one guy you must play a one on one strategy (jackal/bunker etc), which means ALL THE TEAMS WILL BE THE SAME. and god damn i hate when it happens.
I dont know who needs yo be nerfed, azra or zhulog, i jusr know zhulog is way to fast for his abillity. 1 fast strike at fast speed got nerfed, we are talking about a sure 4 kills.
I honestly think Zhu can handle himself absolutely fine without Tenebris or Azrazel. He doesn’t necessarily need the whole team to support him; all he needs is the link condition. He himself singlehandedly fixes the problem assist shadow has with lack of support, and seriously, just look at that moveset. That seems like a solid standalone to me.
Besides, while it’s certainly no easy feat to collect all three of them to perform the strat, that does NOT excuse it for being overpowered. Sure, not many people run it, but the impact is very much apparent nonetheless.
I need to stop you right here, and reiterate what Lochi said earlier. People that are running Zhulong are going to drop potions on him to make him even more deadly, also don’t forget that Talo provides free acceleration every time. So therefore, 50 TU really becomes 34, and 70 really becomes 47. This MUST be taken into consideration when designing moves. Something that seems balanced at 50 will become a LOT more scary when it turns into 34. So if 60-70 is the most reasonable balance, then the base TU should be raised to 80 or 100. That way the absolute lowest it can possibly get is 54 or 68. It sounds preposterous to double it from 50 to 100, but let’s be real, it’s truly going from 34 to 68. Top level players aren’t going to run this thing without bonuses if they can help it. It’s not going from fair to underwhelming, it’s going from overwhelming to fair.
The problem is the devs trying to balance this game
Funny thing:
1 sec Secret skill at 79 speed cost 2+ cost
While timestrike all for glorenix or whatever that thing is called used to cost +3 cost and now it’s +2
Also petition to give terror stun revenge cuz it makes as much sense as giving azra stun revenge
What I know is top10 (or maybe top20) in pvp is fulfilled by azra +talok fl. In top10, players that can balance the greatness of azra+talok fl is geo+motor+shocker middle.
Just faced another counter. Kong throw at zhu (or probably Azra if I had him). The strategy, in zhulong’s case, just has too many counters that people who run it face and that’s why we’re all disagreeing here. Those who lose to it say “omg it’s unbeatable nerf it” and those who run it are like “uhh I’ve lost to plenty of fronts running this” causing the disconnect. Killer gave a great option to beating it, even if the player has all three monsters.
If someone had a plus 9 talo then then there is a chance of that. But once again, we’re having to give all of these conditions to make the combo seem op. Azra seems to be more of a problem than zhu in my opinion.
Seriously though, like isegal said, 1 or 2 strategies simply doesn’t cut it. You’re telling me people need to use a strat that counters it, in other words run one on one or kong. Imagine a meta where literally everyone except Azhubris users runs those two strats. That would be the most painful thing ever. Look, nerfs aren’t always a thing that should be reserved for completely unstoppable strats(zibgazer), sometimes they’re necessary when something becomes too hard to deal with, and causes unintentionally large shifts in the meta, hurting the variety and forcing everyone to play a certain way. Azhubris having 2 strict counters is just. Not. Enough.
I absolutely appreciate Zhulong will be potted and accelerated. That’s how I’ve been using my Zhulong. I even added Lavamane as my substitute for Azra (who I don’t have). Lavamane has 76% speed so roughly the same. What happened in most encounters was either an opponent’s team was faster or link sneak attack all wasn’t particularly effective because they had hold ground on many monsters. Another thing I often saw was them having a move or two before Zhulong where they’d simply hit it somehow to remove stealth then I’d use the 36TU link stealth all which puts it behind all the slow 30-40% speed monsters and it’s easy for them to remove stealth again. It took just a couple of their monsters “wasting” moves in order to stall my killing moves and they took control of the battle with the other two.
Now Azra would play a little differently and the SS allows for skipping past a monster. The most reliable counter is probably a one-on-one, yes. However, maybe we should be looking at what fast monsters we could fit into our team to counter it without having to go with a particular strategy. Someone suggesting Rexkong is a good one. Cyclozar or the TKs are often good. Delugazar obviously works really well here. Apollo and Talo are often handy. Pontibear or Abyssraider are super epics which look good here. Titanomoth and Bitterbeast would be excellent facing it. Then of course there’s any monster with camouflage. That’s probably enough to play around with for now if you want to make a counter. Or you could simply take a gamble by ignoring this front line exists because it is going to be a rare encounter.
With the PvP team I’ve made I manage to get an 80-90% win ratio. I know that sounds cocky to say but it’s what I’ve had from the last 100 matches or so when I’ve used it. My front line struggles against certain things I rarely see like Deo TK TK TT, Bane 5th, sleep immune monsters, Regalion or camouflage monsters. When I come across these I know the battle is going to be incredibly challenging and I’m relying on my mid-game to pull things back. These FLs they’re using can be countered by other things, just not my team, so I’m happy to accept whatever happens. If my team stops working so well in general I’ll change it. This shadow trio has counters out there even if they’re fewer than normal so to put it frankly I think people should suck it up and take the loss to their front line every once in a while and see if later new monsters can introduce more counters to it.
Okay, first, you should leave your own strategy out of this. Lavamane + Zhulong is not the reason we’re having this conversation. Second, you describe the struggle zhu has with keeping his stealth intact, but I honestly don’t believe you’ve ever been on the other side of that dilemma. Zhu makes himself an enormous nuisance by demanding that something on your side constantly be ready to break the stealth, and even if you do have something ideal AND it’s at 50 TU, I somehow doubt it received acceleration like Zhu did. That little loop is not going to go on for very long, especially with Azrazel ready to interfere. Third, Cyclozar? TKs? Talo/Apollo? What the heck are they even going to do? The only window that matters is between az and zhu, and they all overshoot by an enormous margin. My first run in I had with azhubris I had cyclo, and he, well, he removed the shield talo placed. That’s fine and all, but it did absolutely nothing to put a stop to zhu’s wrath. And sure, there’s Rex. Can he even bring zhu to hg? Even if he can, how do you plan to finish him off when talo’s planting a shield? In order to finish zhu you’d need to have three monsters faster than az, and Rex MUST be the first one, and it must move before talo, which is a 50-50 assuming they’re both fully bonused, and to top it all off you probably also have to rely on damage rng to be kind to you and actually put Zhu to hg. That’s just not a realistic expectation at all. And this what I’m told is the second best counter option for this strat. Not a good sign.