Played over 50 PvP matches and that’s exactly how it looks lol. Either that or that damn poison all SE mon and all his pals.
I run that…
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Well ofcourse you dont have to pay. But as someone who played for 2 years, bought my fair of gems (not a big spender but still), ans got about 60 legends - i still feel outmatched against the new era, and it feels the only way to give them a match is to spend as well, and alot (every 2 weaks there is a new strong legend).
Yes, i can win, and it take skills and not just good monsters - you can say it all, and you right. And yes, the monsters are coubterable so its hard to ask for a nerf (like stunning the turtle before he does anything, or poison your team to avoid those sleep entrences), but still - those monsters has a huge potentional so it really hard to counter the spenders who got all of them, and the only counter is fight fire with fire and buy those legends as well…
No I agree with all of that.
And I have an account with 75 legends, none of the new ones, and an account with 35 legends, quite a few new ones, and for PvP I almost prefer the 35 account. That tells you how much better the most recent ones are compared to the old.
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So, I was reading and I had a few thoughts to share that seem to warrent their own discussion over the specific monsters. General themes if you will.
Okay, so a couple things I have noticed about the game + community.
- We often ask for buffs to monsters to keep them usable.
- Nerfs are decried against, and when they do happen, then people start leaving/stop spending.
These two things alone mean that of course there is going to be power creep. When the adjustment of monsters can only go up in power level, then we end up having a higher power ceiling over time.
We also have a very incomplete system for monster value. These days an epic is worth 8 cost, a superepic 10, and a legendary 13. These are the base costs for every monster in the game. Now, legendaries have a bit of a specialty in that they have an extra skill over the other rarities. This is balanced by a small bit of extra cost on top of the rest of the base monster. This value system basically equates to monsters essentially only ever being compared to each other, and there is literally no way to judge whether something is OP or not just by itself. In a vaccum with nothing to compare a monster too, we have no value for a monster at all.
So this means that all that a monster costs is a slot in a team. At this point you can see the issue: If you’re only comparing things to other things, rather than comparing things to a base numerical value that can define their worth.
Take hearthstone as an example. While they aren’t perfect with balance, at least they have a raw “value to mana cost” amount that can be used in order to do balancing. In neo though, it’s “I can use x or y. Which ons is worth more to me/is worth more in general.” While our system is based on comparing things, there will always be power creep, because people are going to use the most effective thing available to them at all times. The devs then have 2 options:
- Buff the old stuff.
- Nerf the new stuff.
2 is not an option due to the way we as a community treat it. So what’s left? Buff crap instead.
This one-sided forced approach means that there is also no room for error. Note that in a perfect world where the developers knew exactly the power level of everything and how it relates to everything else, then the system could work. However, the developers aren’t perfect and as such if they release a monster that is stronger, well then. We can’t nerf it, so we again buff everything else.
Balancing is a very difficult job, and unfortunately, I don’t think the devs have a good numerical way to measure power levels and the relationship between cost and power(remember motor? That thing should have costed a lot more than 13 points when you compare it to something like a nebelronix.)
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Gyo epitomises the creep and has to be nerfed!
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The power creep is slow and steady in general but when you compare monsters two years older than the new ones then yes there is a fair difference.
I agree that what makes the newer monsters stronger is they have strong passives that result in fewer counters to them and more guaranteed value when used in the right team (e.g. sleep immunity with OoO). New passives like sleep immunity and tranquilizing entrance are super strong and so if the monster itself is good then in practice it’s far better than other monsters.
I think that we’ve all got to accept that there will be a certain level of power creep going on in the game. Old monsters WILL become outdated even if they get improved with a secret skill and still remain uniquely useful in some teams.
Also, I think it’s too easy to wrongly compare monsters. For example, Cry is Free in the first post here compares Wraithhost to Magmarinus even though they work completely differently in practice. Wraithhost is for controlled time wasting teams (sleep/stun) and does especially well with OoO since once it’s survived 300s it becomes deadly and a high priority target before it gets its novablast. It’s basically a super buffed version of the novablast monsters. Magma comes in and quickly gets a turn where it instantly begins to wreck havoc with the very powerful dual slayerbane then quick killing moves. It can keep itself alive nicely but the main thing is its incredibly fast killing speed of 70TU or 30TU. A big feature of Magma is the inability to select the target which means it can’t be used in control teams (exact opposite of Wraithhost) but it will add so much value for a stand-alone monster that it is brilliant to use in a PvP team and works better than Wraithhost if used alongside 3 other good monsters. Hence it can be easy to see Magmarinus>Wraithhost if you look at them in practice.
Here’s what I’d suggest:
A complete overhaul of the cost system which allows more freedom in the cost of monsters.
E.g.
1-3* = same as current (1-7)
4* = 8-10
5* = 10-18
6* = 15-25-30 (up to 30 including secret skill)
By increasing the overall cost of these monsters it also allows for further expansions to the cost without it being drastic. The max team cost could also be slowly increased as these further expansions happen.
Unfortunately this change would make things more complicated as monsters will no longer have a formulaic cost structure. Team building will become complicated and people may get confused. However, for balance in the game this could do SO MUCH and be a good way to control things as time progresses. I personally think there’s a bit of an issue right now with strong monsters which don’t require a secret skill so you can have an “overpowered” monster at only 13 cost. Also, some SE monsters are excessively strong compared to some of the older legendaries.
In my personal opinion devs should have control over buffs and nerfs there shouldn’t be only one way to solve the problem buff everything else so people dont complain, how about if a nerf happen to a monster you can exchange the monster for a legendary gem (where this legendary gem can be exchanged to roll the featured legendary monster in the egg). Simple solution and fixes devs balancing errors instead of running the player experience.
Changing cost does not really solve anything, it will create a new meta (yes) then this meta will shift to what is known today and we would be back in the same spot.
First of all Wraithhost in my example was used specifically to compare skills, i choose to compare Wraithhost because in all situations Magmarinus is the better option whether you playing sleep,stun,stall as Magmarinus will start as soon as it hits the field and has very few counter plays where Wraithhost has to be limited to conditions in order to sweep and can be easly countered by just dropping its health to 50%. Then we end up with this question why does Wraithhost has to have limitations in order to do what Magmarinus does no conditions.
Another example to make it more simple.
Both monsters are considered sweepers.
Both monsters have the same passives
Both monsters deal great damage and reflect some to the user.
Both monstets have ability to heal, expect one cant heal to full hp unless hes at 1 where the other can heal to full hp at any time.
Difference one monster can requires 320 in order to opreate and do his sweeping job while the other can operate directly.
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Its important to remember that magma is completely random whereas wraith is not… I get the power creep thing but I’ve never heard wraith and magma compared before. I don’t think it’s right to put them next to each other at all.
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Ya I dont see wraith and magma similar at all. I see wraith as valza on steroids. And I’ve also never heard anybody say wraith is weak.
I agree with KD that a reorder of the cost system is necessary at this point. All legends shouldnt automatically be 13 + SS cost. For example:
Sanct,Cryo, even with their “buff”: 12/12
Valza, Warca, Bane (needs an SS): 13/14
Magma, Tago, Deo: 15/16
BB,Gyo,Angel: 16/17
Where the first number is without SS and the second is with SS.
Note, I dont value Sanctalion enough to be a true legend, nor does its SS bring that much to the table when its primarily FL stun bate.
Valza, Bane Warca are a middle tier that’s still very useful and competitive but nobody is gonna say they’re OP.
Magma, Tago, and Deodragon are can wreck a line up and change the match, but they’re still vulnerable.
BB, Gyo, and the new Angelion are the ones that at 13 team cost bring a ton of value to their team and are true game changers. Game as in NM, not as in an individual match. They definitely need a cost increase to offset the power of adding them to your lineup.
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And yes, people are going to now tell me there are ways to deal with each of the ones I put in the top categories. I’m not arguing about OP here. I’m arguing that they bring way more than 13 team points worth of value to the table, especially if were also going to say Sucktalion brings 13 points of value to a match.
New heal makes santallion actually usable if you include other legends.
Sanctallion with dusicyon, heavenswyrm + protector into midas is a pretty legit frontline.
That sounds interesting. I’ll give it a shot.
But to the point of my post, do you think that Sanct/cryo brings the same value to the team that Gyo, BB, Magma, Tago, Tort, Angelion bring? Or even Valza, Dusi, Aegis, or Bane?
Every monster can be made to work in a team with the right support and strategy, but all legends dont bring 13 points of value.
I think we can offset the power creep by making legendary cost reflective of the value it brings to the team.
We already do this implicitly by making some SS +1 and others +2 or +3.
@Mr.X Let’s not get caught up over the Magma VS Wraithhost comparison. I said my thoughts on that and while I know there are a number of people who dislike Wraithhost it does have a good place when played with the intention of reaching the 400s novablast.
@Boiler Thanks for agreeing with me about how some monsters need a proper increase to their cost and especially their base cost (without secret skill).
I’d like to point out what my suggestion is doing:
- Giving a larger range of costs to differentiate the monsters (more than 14-16)
- Allowing some SEs to cost more than legendaries (their power creep will exceed weaker legendaries, especially when considering combos)
- Allowing further expansion of max legendary cost, because the numbers are larger overall (currently increasing it to 17, 18, etc. will be proportionately quite high compared to 30->31,32,etc)
- Allowing the starting cost (pre-SS) to be different and in many cases higher than other monsters who have secret skills, which means secret skills can be properly costed rather than them simply creating the “true cost” of the monster
- Tweaks (minor or major) to the costs of specific monsters will be easier and more effective because there is a larger range of costs it can be set to and the overall cost of a team allows for far more customisation rather than picking “X number of 13 cost monsters and Y number of 14-16 monsters with Z 10 cost or below” as it currently is
I didn’t want to bang on about my suggestion when I first wrote it but I see now it’s not the easiest concept to pick up from what I wrote. I hope these points get you thinking about it and maybe inspiring a better idea out of you (I’m sure it can be drastically improved).
I’m glad you’re thinking this way too! Whale’s Treasure is a great event for bringing to light some other strategies which we might not try. Healing is very viable in the holy element. I have 13 holy legendaries now and the synergy they have with the healing on hold ground monsters is brilliant.
Magma seems to have started the power “Rush”. Everything about him screams powerful. With the right setup he is very very hard to kill. Then comes Gyomurai. Goodbye hg again and btw let’s make it immune to sleep and poison too. Oh and reusable healing move as well. Then Tortogeist. Don’t get me even started on that. Now Lion. It seems the game is really coming to its end.
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I don’t see how power creep is a bad thing. New monsters should bring an edge to the game. Whether or not thats a powerful move they bring or a tactic. Should be something unique from them. Just look at the exploding cat. It can block attacks without putting your team in any danger from assasinate etc. since its not a protector.
I think athrahasis is an older monster but i havent been playing that long so who knows. He is still widely used. But, then again he is a First One (might even be the first first one 
)
Also, increasing costs of legends is not going to be good. Especiall for new players. Not everyone has 206 costs. Your 25 cost per legend means 206/25 = 8 legends per team. eww. I’m not really sure, but I think team costs was increased so more legends could be used in a team.
I think theres a lesson to be learned here. Dont quit the game and expect to stay on top. I think the saying is you snooze you loose 
@Exu gyo is still vulnerable to stun. And slayerbane (magma can just use repent for slayerbane protection)
Totally agree on SEs costing more than some legends.
I would put abyssraider, sear, and some of the flutters over Ash, cryo, sanct, redo, kami, AP poison eaters just to name a few. Seeing those be 11 instead of 10 would reflect their true value.
Nothing is worth over 18 team points tho, but having the absolute top tiers cost 15 or 16 base, 17 or 18 with SS could really help defray their superiority.
The overhaul I suggest to the cost system would include increasing the total team cost. That’s why all costs would be increased and the team cost redone to allow for that. It wouldn’t just be increasing some monster costs from 16 to something like 25 without anything else changing!
Interesting. Increase the cumulative value to allow for more precise measures of power.
I could see that. Make team cost 250, but then your SEs fall anywhere from 8-15, legends from 14-21.