Nerf ideas for top moves

Neo Monsters Neo Monsters General Discussions
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There are certain moves that at the moment I find are quite too on the strong side, and to be honest I don’t even really understand why they are the way they are:

  1. Double Kill Moves (Time’s Up, Defang, Assassinate, Countershock, Nightwatch): why do they deal lethal damage even though only one of the 2 monsters is a viable kill target?

I’d get it if this happened only on monsters of weaker element or with very low defense, but just like Double Poison Eater doesn’t (usually) 1-shot 2 monsters if only one is poisoned, I don’t get why these 100tu moves do.

  1. Link Slayerbane All: why doesn’t it have a time restriction on the monster’s first turn?

They changed Magma’s SS because it used to be too powerful. Makes sense… but then they changed it into a better one? I get you need to build around it now, but it’s still 4 kills on a Stun Immune, HG, high speed monster. And same goes with the other 2 monsters that have the move.

Plus it only costs 2?! Really?!

  1. Link Dual Give Turn: why can monsters with this ability be given a turn?

I know this one has been here for a while and is probably here to stay, and I know that unlike the 2 mentioned above, this one does take 2 specific monsters to set up. Still, this has to be the dumbest interaction in the game by far!

  1. Dolphin Bond.

I loved the Dolphreeze nerf when I first saw it: still does everything it’s supposed to (which is a lot), but now you have to risk wasting those 3 cost if you want the Diamonoids.

I also like the idea of mitigating that risk if you run a specific set up… but come on! A 100% boost is way overboard, expecially on Dolphreeze, who’s already tanky more than enough.

Just wanted to give my 2 cents on those moves, since all top tiers seem to have them and I’m starting to think it’s not a coincidence.

Finally, I still strongly belive mythics should go back up in cost like they used to, and I say so while having 2 mythics in team.

So what do you guys think?

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power creep more money ok bye i need more sleep

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You say that multiple killer moves shouldn’t kill the other mon that doesn’t fit the restriction but then slayerbane all would not kill non slayer monsters and double poison eater usually kills the 2 mons even if only 1 is poisoned exept if one has big defense or health

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  1. Killer moves are meant to punish the enemy team for having particular archetypes. That’s why they don’t just kill the monster that makes them critical, the “punishing” bit is also killing another monster. Simple killer moves are not quite punishing enough in many cases so these upgraded versions have come out. You compare it to double poison eater, but that’s a move which can kill anything whereas these killer moves only target specific monsters… they’re very different in function.

  2. Link slayerbane all is a big payoff for playing link, that’s pretty much it. Sweeping the entire enemy team in one go isn’t always a good idea either, bringing in four fresh monsters. Magma wasn’t changed to nerf it, it’s because Magma was too easily spammed in any PvP team. With the link restriction it’s now stronger but can only be used in certain teams.

  3. I completely agree. I think all monsters which can give turn to 2+ monsters repeatedly should not be possible to target with give turn. If their dual give turn is a one-time use I think it’s okay for them to be given a turn. Give turn loops feel very unfair when you’re on the receiving end and it’s potentially game-breaking if the wrong things come to the game.

  4. I agree Dolphin Bond gives a boost that’s just too high. +50% atk/def would be much more balanced than +100%.

  5. Mythic cost is good now I think. Unless they’re going to increase the max cost from 206 to 210-215 I don’t think their cost should increase. They’re stronger than legendaries, but sometimes not worth +2 cost. Given how hard they are to get awakened and they’re meant to be stronger it makes a lot more sense they are only +1 cost. This way they’re better to have in teams than legendaries in most cases which is how it should be, given the design of everything.

Bonanoe is correct saying this. By my numbers:
Poison eater = 0.56
Double poison eater = 0.725, 1.3

Those are the damage modifiers of the moves. 0.56 is the poison eater damage that we know struggles to kill anything which is tanky. However, double poison eater does 0.725 when only one target is poisoned which is typically enough to kill all except the tankiest monsters. Most monsters with double poison eater also have max attack, but for those who don’t then yet it can struggle to one-shot some enemies.

For reference, sleep/toxic killer is 0.58 while chrono killer is 0.7. So if you know the difference in damage between these two killer moves and how easily chrono killer gets kills then you know how it is for the poison eater moves too.

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Well this is a little off topic but some legends definitely need some cost rebalancing. One of them is Ziberius. Should be 14 cost instead of 16. The only thing that even remotely justifies 16 cost is that he has a high speed cannibalize, but Even Canishogun is 14 cost… Come on :crazy_face:

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Canishogun is meant to be used with high cost monsters so it would be unfair to make it cost too much itself… oh wait

Ziberius is a sad case for a few reasons. The 16 cost is just an insult.

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Unmovable should be removed from Dolphreeze it makes no sense with it’s current move set and it’s a huge buff in my opinion that passive in him it’s simply too much

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I didn’t say they shouldn’t kill monsters that don’t trigger the critical damage, I said that it should deal less damage on both. Similarly to how Double Poison usually doesn’t 1-shot if one of the target monsters is poisoned.

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  1. From what you said, I belive all single target sweeping moves should do more damage, while all double sweeping moves should do less. As it currently is it makes no sense, and explains why the meta is so stale that every team revolves around double sweeping. By the way Poison Eater can’t target everyone, it can only target poisoned monsters.

  2. Link Deathstroke, Link Faststrike on a Roaring Entrance monster, Link Double Retribution, Assisted moves dealing mad damage and general TU reductions are a payoff to running a link team, and they are good payoffs at that. Link Slayerbane all is just absurdity.

5 . I disagree, I belive awakened legendaries are the highest priority to get a cost increase, mostly because otherwise the game just becomes even more so of a pay to win. Personally I belive extra money invested should give you more options, meaning better ability to counter, more ways to prove your team building skills and a faster startup, but not an easy win. That’s a matter of opinions though I guess. Regardless 2nd forms are just as dumb: 2nd form Suikenshi at cost 11 is just insulting, and 2nd form Nagadia, which I run, isn’t that much better.

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Is there a thread in this forum about damage calculations? I read the thread about unevolved mythics and how damage gets generally calculated, but is there a thread where we can see, for example, specific moves damage multipliers?

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I agree with all your points except the last one because I have an obligation to disagree with suggestions contrary to my personal interest.

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  1. Double poison eater is actually stronger than all the double killer moves, apart from time’s up. My point about poison eater hitting anything is because practically anything can be poisoned… poison is a whole archetype which can get built around while killer moves are built to punish such archetypes. Functionally the two are very different and we need properly punishing moves. The single killer moves are good but not enough in most cases.

  2. Some great examples of other powerful link moves there. Link slayerbane all isn’t much stronger than any of them, especially due to stealth, shields and how you might want a more controlled approach than killing all four enemies. It’s already restricted from use at the start of a battle so that mostly prevents the potential abuse.

5 . I agree that spending money should increase options rather than giving you stronger monsters, but unfortunately mythics are the direction the game owners decided to take. While better than legendaries, you wouldn’t be able to use many in your team if they were +2 cost and it’s not like they outclass legendaries. If it’s in question whether they’re worth it then the cost is too high, which is what it felt like at 15 cost. 14 cost makes them clearly better but the legendaries are designed well enough they can easily compete without much game imbalance between big spenders and the rest of the playerbase.

I also feel like 2nd form mythics should be 12 cost for balance reasons but it’s true that not many use them when they’re that cost so them being 11 cost makes these 2nd forms slightly more appealing. That’s good for the people who aren’t big spenders and aren’t awakening them.

It’s on my list of guides I want to create. Things got set back quite a bit when I took on other projects. Monster analysis is the top priority so until that’s done it’s unlikely I will make the damage calculation guide, team building guide or finish the “how to beat all the events” guide.

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When I said double sweeping moves should be nerfed and single sweeping buffed I meant poison too. Double target is already better than single target, so why give extra damage on top? It makes no sense.

As far as Double Poison Eater being stronger than any double killer move I strongly disagree. You could make that argument if they both dealt the same damage when only 1 of the targets triggers the critical damage, but otherwise I just can’t see it. Plus Double Poison Eater is in my most cases a 200tu move, so even if it always killed like double killer moves, I still don’t see it at the same level as them.

You could make that argument about Double Slayerbane since that one is basically always active, but other than that… just no.

Regarding Link Slayerbane all I just disagree. Killing 4 monsters might have its downsides in the early game, and even then it’s already stupid, but at the end of the team it’s just insane and not something you can have on a monster as fast and defensive as Magma.

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Truth be told, double hit moves are fine the way they are. Sure, they’re powerful but if there’s no targets, then they’re near useless. As Killerdog says, properly punishing moves are a nessecary evil in this game.

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They don’t need to be this good though, just as single targets don’t need to be this bad.

Must be a reason why all top tiers have them.

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:point_up::point_up::point_up:

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Then perhaps buffing the damage of single target attacks will work then.

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