My issue with a certain few attacks...

Some people have noted how I take very seriously the balance of effort vs. reward. I believe it’s a very important part of a game’s balancing act, because it’s what keeps the meta from devolving into mindless spam all over the place. It’s a very simple concept: the more you work for something, the more you get from it. The act of “working for it” can take many different forms: using certain other moves first, inflicting a condition, staying alive for a long time, having a specific monster combo handy, losing teammates, and in my opinion the most controversial one: having the enemy fulfill a given condition.

There are two sides of a balanced meta: put little effort into something, get little reward in return; for example, Flocco’s slash move requires a mere press of the button, but rarely nets kills and leaves him at high TU. Alternatively, put lots of effort into something, get lots of reward; for example, Voidress netting 3 kills and then wreaking havoc on the enemy team all by itself; an absolutely brilliant embodiment of the far end of the balanced spectrum. 2 ideal sides of effort and reward, both in relative sync with each other. But then there’s the 2 bad combinations that indicate poor balance: high effort + low reward(like the sheer amount of time and breathing room needed to assemble a line of Cryos or Sancs that can go to waste very quickly), and of course low effort + high reward. You can probably see where I’m going with this.

The moves I’m discussing are Double Counter Strike, Nightwatch, Time’s Up and Defang. Here’s a couple of similar moves that I’m giving a pass:

  • Assassinate. The first of its kind, this one is much more fair and makes more sense than its counterparts imo. If there’s a protector it grants you the ability to rip into it, and as a bonus take down one enemy that’s being protected. It’s a protector’s job to die first, so having it be one of the casualties shouldn’t be that big a blow, not to mention that the other target is directly enjoying the benefits it provides, so that sort of makes it complicit, if that makes sense.

  • Timestrike Double. Rather a classic, this move would be on the chopping block if it weren’t for the advantage that you give up by using it. A monster that can’t contribute to the fight is worse than dead, because it stops another mon from taking its place. By taking advantage of a stun lock to just pulverize 2 opponents, you pass up on an opportunity to leave the opponent in a crippled state. Hence why this move gets a pass from me despite having the same core issue as the others.

  • Double Dreamhunt. Honestly sleep itself can be pretty tough to land in the first place, and just like timestrike you’re passing up the chance to keep things quite heavily in your favor.

  • Double Poison Eater. Will talk more on this in a moment.

Now… the problem with these 4 moves, of course, is the imbalance of effort and reward. The standard killer moves we see on mons like Cyclo and Chrome strike a perfect balance; if a single enemy meets the condition, that enemy gets the axe. But when the move is expanded to double form, a very real problem arises: what if only one of the targets fulfills the condition? Well, these moves simply opt to kill both of them anyway. They are reaping twice the reward that the single versions do for the exact same amount of effort. True, there’s a 30 TU difference(which is lessened with bonus factored in), but even so it’s significantly more efficient than the single version. Not to mention this grants them the ability to target that single condition monster through a protector that doesn’t satisfy, which kind of causes them to intrude on assassinate’s role in a sense. Not that there’s anything wrong with the general idea of a move being upgraded, like dual retribution and such, but the problem here is a monster being unfairly targeted.

Now, in comes Double Counter Strike to just throw gas into the fire. I’ve seen its full power from both the dealing and receiving ends, and I can safely say that it is pure bull****. The killer moves at least make sense in that they counter specific setups that are potentially devastating… but punishing a monster for being a specific element? Frankly, that’s just kind of cruel. Why does Lava have any more reason to be targeted than Mecha when they’re essentially the exact same monster? So, counter strike on its own is a questionable concept at best(Looking at you too, Kattmander and mythic ladies…), even though it makes some sense given the target’s initial advantage over the use. But what pushes it over the edge toward being simply unbearable is the way a second monster is roped into being punished for a petty condition it didn’t even meet at all. This is the equivalent of a teacher sending 2 students to the principal’s office for acting up even though one of them never made a peep. It’s incredibly low effort(~50% chance of fire being present in a randomized FL) for ludicrous reward, a condition that the opponent shouldn’t reasonably expect to be prepared for.

I could overlook all of it, however… under one condition: the damage gets toned down. Here’s where I bring up Double Poison Eater; the reason this one’s passable despite punishing a monster that isn’t even poisoned is because in this situation the damage is fairly lackluster; significant, but not enough to kill a reasonably bulky monster. A reduced reward(unreliable kills) for only half the effort, staying consistent with the balance spectrum. DCS, nightwatch, TU and Defang don’t seem to suffer from this problem however, very reliably scoring kills with only one target despite the damage being less than that of two targets; full reward for half effort. That just ain’t fair to the single move monsters that only get one at a time. If there are two targets fulfilling the condition? well then, the attack can do 100k for all I care. The condition’s fully met, so full reward is due.

I understand though, it’s quite rare that you happen to get 2 monsters at once to satisfy the condition, and if that were the only scenario where it was useful then the move would be WAY too situational. So, it’s fine for it to deal significant damage with only one, just not enough for 2 guaranteed KOs. Take a page out of DPE’s book, and only take out SEs and frail legends in one hit. Canis’s ability to sometimes pierce could be slightly problematic though… since he’s meant to be played around underranked monsters anyway, I feel like it’s fair to lower his damage to the point where single target DCS needs piercing in order to kill the bare minimum amount. Counter strike is just a dumb move, so I strongly believe its damage should be much less.

I would love to make use of my Canis for creative strats that allow obscure epics to shine… I just don’t want it to be overshadowed by a single broken move, and I don’t want to feel like a dirtbag just for putting him in my team. That’s kind of the other half of my motivation for asking for this nerf, alongside the balance of effort and reward. If anyone has arguments for why this wouldn’t be such a good idea or maybe even a different way to fix the same problem, I’d like to hear it.


Your analysis on Timestrike Double is why I have no issue with moves such as Time’s Up and Defang; yes, killing two monsters is always nice, but it can backfire on you and enable your opponent to stage a comeback. There have been plenty of instances where I lost due to getting a little too greedy with getting kills, so getting multiple kills at a time isn’t always beneficiary.

Don’t get me wrong, in some cases I understand where you’re coming from, however as someone who dislikes the whole ‘powercreep’ complaint, I figured that I had to put my two cents in.

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Nightwatch was actually weaker and it only one-shot monsters if both were sleep or the very squishy sleep monsters. However, on release people complained LOTS and said it needed a damage buff so the Devs did exactly that. Defang and Time’s up came shortly afterwards, both with higher damage too (maybe they were going to be weak as well).

In my mind, counters need to be properly punishing. I see absolutely no issue with moves like double counter strike or double killer moves which allow a monster to do critical to something that doesn’t meet its condition. It still has to meet the condition with at least one monster and often the monsters with these moves are restricted to only doing damage with this condition and maybe one other conditional move too (e.g. Dracorosa and Centaureon have counter strike as well as their double killer move).

The TU for these moves is higher than a single target move (70 -> 100). That’s the balancing factor. It could be higher maybe, like 110 or 120 but 100TU is not game breaking. Personally I think Nightwatch should have its TU increased from 70 to 100 to match the others (70 was fine with the lower damage, but now there’s no reason for it to match sleep killer).

For counter strike it’s 100TU -> 160TU, quite a steep increase. 160TU double killing is far from game breaking. The only reason why it’s in question is because Canishogun is a popular front line monster and has high speed, hence is very punishing to front lines with fire monsters. However, that’s a fault of Canishogun rather than the move.

I think these moves are totally fine, with the one niggle that I want Nightwatch to be 100TU. Punishing elements is the counter to link teams. These other double killer moves are to punish those particular strategies. Double hitting moves also help stop these teams from hiding their monsters behind protectors, an issue we’ve seen at times.

P.S. Assassinate really wasn’t punishing enough to protectors. One of the reasons was the damage wasn’t high enough.

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Punishing elements is a good counter to link teams, but cani can punish a FL at 95 speed with piercing for the enemy having one fire monster

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Can’t say I’m a big supporter of Canishogun’s way of using double counter strike, but that’s the monster rather than the move causing an issue.

We obviously have differing mindsets here regarding the value of kills… you’re thinking way ahead about the hazards of killing two at once, which is a fair point. But kills are still kills; it’s the single win condition of the game. Two monsters dead is a fairly significant portion of the team, not to mention pretty much all of the monsters in question have a blood that they immediately charge by landing the move. So arguably, due to relatively low TU, you’re in just as much of a position to keep the ball rolling as the opponent is to make a striking comeback. Besides, the monster you can’t see coming won’t be the worst one possible every single time… could just as easily be the exact thing you want to see, be it another sleeper/poisoner/etc. or a monster too slow to react for your second turn.

I tell you what, how about we talk about nerfing Scorpiogiests double RAW posion eater before any of these moves. RAW is not a condition these days it’s a buff and with the ridiculous amount of super fast ways to have Baindragon enter at 90% freaken speed in the FL utter BS and
that makes posion a non existent cheap ■■■ condition because it can barely be stopped except for a handful of monsters. Barely any ways to stop it. Protectors don’t do squat and stealth can’t stop Banes entrance passive

Please add that to the list if you got an issue with these double kill moves. Because these days it’s one of the strongest.

Bottom line the only one I got a slight issue with is Nightwatch for the simple reason the monster that has it has champions entrance and can use it instantly and it does crazy damage when we factor that into the equation along with his incredible low TU RAW blood move. I don’t need it nerfed though because this is more of a monster issue not an issue with the move.


Tbh what they probably need to do is make more archetypes so something like “defang” doesn’t have so many targets.

Currently, if you use Dolphreeze, Dracorosa, Centaureon and Angelion in your team you are covered for lots of different teams you might come up against. If there’s also a few other things that people can bring in that have their own weaknesses then we might see more variety.

We do have a good number of archetypes but the game could always have more and for more of them to be viable.

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I kinda dedicated this thread specifically to the moves guilty of the 2 in 1 thing… I’m totally agreed that Scorpio is quite a bit too powerful, and there’s other monsters I could bring up like Magmarinus and Infernicorn that also garner far too much reward for little to no effort. Totally down to discuss these three along with Canis/Cent/Dolph/Draco.

That’s why I mentioned scorpiogiest because he is a 2 in 1 killer. And worse than the others due to the speed it can be done.

He should be on the top of your list…

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This. The devs have tried to make Mortar monsters more common by adding Gryph and Astro to the egg pool, and I can see them doing more for other archetypes such as Stealth, LINK and maybe even Mark. Of course, another potential idea is an Abyssoldier team, but with its members scattered all-over the place it’ll be quite tricky to make a team based on them.

Since I’ve seen several people begging for a Scorp nerf, I thought up of one that should satisfy the crowd. Put a TU restriction on RAW Massacre (Can’t be used until 100sec after the monsters first move) and decrease it’s speed to 70-75. Hopefully that would suffice because even I think it offers too much, and that’s saying something.

Then again, the usual suspects will keep whining about it until it’s nerfed to uselessness so what do I know?

What I meant by 2 in 1 is having only one monster satisfy, and being able to punish 2 for it. He’s very rarely thrust into a situation where only one victim is poisoned, so that’s not really what his problem is. I consider scorpio to be problematic in a different way from the 2 in 1s, equally in serious need of treatment but requires a whole nother solution.

I’m not sure if you are including me in that category because I’m VERY conservative when it comes to nerfs. I only mentioned Scorpiogiest in the topic of nerfs because the ones mentioned in the OP are IMHO weaker than him and shouldn’t be nerfed. I put scarleguard in the FL to help deal with him. But I need to pray that my Stag blocks the attack from Megalodragon.

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The fact that you said that is proof that you’re not one of the people I was talking about. I won’t name names though, since this isn’t the time for that.

U need to purchase the Welsh mythic to counter scorpion teams !

But on a serious note , double moves should make critical damage on monsters that meet the condition rather than how it’s working now.

I would suggest assassinate be nerfed like this too since auto protects have much more counters now. Assassinate be a move that kills 2 protectors at a time .

Same for every other double killer moves .

PS: I wonder who got the idea of giving both time’s up and bloodfury on a single monster !

Thank you for the feedback guys.

Of course we can make double target skill only deal critical damage to the target that meets the condition. This will be a big and overhaul change in the code, and it will affect many things we have got used to. But I wouldn’t rule out this option for the better battle experience. Here are our thoughts:

  • With this change, these skills will be more intuitive, and it is good for new users to learn.
  • It will make the game less aggressive, and we are worried player may take even longer time to finish a battle, especially under 16 vs 16 format.
  • This will not only affect double target skills but all the multi target moves. So Slayerbane All will only deal critical to the enemy monsters that have kill. (this may be one stone two birds :thinking_face:)

Wow… ok, so that idea did occur to me, just doing away with the pooled damage thing and dealing with each monster individually… but I left it out last second due to slight doubts about how harsh it is. Peng is the BY FAR the one that’d suffer the most, since he’s an old monster that’s been lucky enough to stay relevant due to his one ace in the hole, and if this happens that would get taken away from him in a heartbeat. There’s tons of monsters that would take very heavy blows, including a couple that don’t really deserve it, so a few of them might be entitled to a bit of compensation for it… for example, could remove Peng’s one time use penalty since the move won’t be nearly as impactful; it’d create another bit of synergy with Overwatch too. Same goes for Chronozeros’s Timestrike all; so much less impact, therefore I think it makes sense to remove the restriction. Other than that, maybe a few TU decreases or slight damage increases.

We also need to take Assassinate into consideration. If this move gets affected by your proposed change, it’ll become completely pointless since it can’t deal crit damage to anything that’s not a protector. It’d essentially be a 100 TU protector killer that happens to have the ability to hurt 2 protectors(and walled out by camo not to mention), which fails to live up to the actual theme of the move, which is taking out a key threat that the enemy is attempting to keep secure. Like I said this move feels rather different from its 3 counterparts as well as all the other double moves, not to mention it’s SIGNIFICANTLY older, so I really feel like it could stand to be given a pass.

Nope not down for that, I just dislike the punishing an element and a different element that counter strike brings to the table. Having a specific element present on your team is far different than having a type of meta on your team, such as chrono, poison, sleep… that’s my opinion at least