Let’s Talk about Poison Endgames and the possible solution to them

[EMI_Eklypz]

if anyone ever reads the skill suggestion/monster design threads you might notice that ive been coming up with ideas specifically to combat poison endgames for about 2 years lmao. i have created at least 6 or seven anti-poison or anti autopoison movesets. smh.

remember link fire teams?
those were endgames that got completely destroyed and are now barely playable.
we need a solution that doesn’t completely destroy the strategy. therefore i think we only need a couple of monsters who can potentially counter them for instance a monster with roaring entrance and an autopoisoner instant kill move.

another example is the recent move i suggested “Evaporate” which removes poison and replaces it with stealth.

[Killerdog]

@DRACARYS

It’s curious how we have many more monsters now, and yet, there is less team diversity in comparison to what you’d find 2 or 3 years ago.

There’s far more, but if you look at specific players then it’s easy to spot patterns among those groups. That’s just play style, a result of people copying and the natural shaping of a PvP meta.

@Coltraz

The best example of why it should be looked at is that if you decide to not run poison eg you HAVE TO prepare your own eg to deal with poison eg.

So your argument is that it’s not the only strong option but because it’s popular it should be weakened / given more counters?

I can buy that. A few more counters to specifically poison end-games would be nice. Then people can use them if they feel the need to. I don’t think it should be weakened though, because the signs don’t seem to point to it being an OP end-game… simply one of the strong options.

[NMEduck]

The main similarity I saw from the teams @squinty1880 posted is that they all use my teambuilding

[Gentle]

idk about others but my way of dealing with poison endgames was Motor Jackolene late. I get to spam tokens and ruin their back to back roaring entance spam. It worked wonders for me. Credits to bvn for the idea

also whats up with y draig and his use being less. he was supposed to counter poison but i dont remember anyone using him in like forever

[Cesar]

token/stun lock works very well. I’m delighted to be able to use my stun teams and no one uses that so it was still interesting

[LemonSqueezy]

@Gentle

but i dont remember anyone using him in like forever

[Mr.X]

@Mr.X

The secret skill could be changed to insta purifying mist all. What does this do is allow her to purify removing poison and setup up the stealth for double sweeping. This will allow her to be less awkward when sweeping and give her a chance against poison end game.

What do you know. Always head of his time.

I believe lets first buff monsters before we jump on the nerf. We need more monsters like cent

[TNCxXchaosxXf2p]

the poison after the nectareon nerf is not that strong in general, the really strong poison endings need asmodia indispensably gorgodrake and the mystica that is a bee (I don’t remember its name) are also a great help, in addition to the specific legendaries as usual and now some hp increases that take a long time to achieve, so it seems like a strong but fair ending to me

[Myst]

Poison endgame is crazy. Once it get started it sweeps until your defeat. No counters at all except cent to some extent.

[LemonSqueezy]

It’s difficult yeah. Y Ddraig is the best counter. Bastia. And generally camo spam. But I appreciate not everyone has those.

[ewertonrodrigo]

Asmodia is the problem. I lost several matches because of her. Roaring entrance and very low tu moves. Can insta poison as well as toxic entrance in case there are shields. It just doesn’t make sense specially considering people have been abusing poison end games for many seasons. We had monsters nerfed that cause way less damage than Asmodia (like Katt for instance) so it would be nice to hear from @Dev_VKC if there are any plans to address the whole poison end game situation.

[LemonSqueezy]

I’ve been thinking about this. I think the problem is:

Stun immunity - does its job
Sleep immunity - does its job
Poison immunity - fails.

This is because unless everything is poison immune, one non poison immune monster allows moves like double poison eater to kill both anyway.

I propose that poison immunity provides a significant damage reduction for the monster when facing poison moves like double poison eater @Dev_VKC

[Exu]

Yeah I agree, it’s always been unintuitive that double and even triple poison eater crit when only one monster is poisoned. Same thing actually with other dual moves that require a condition. The other monster gets punished for “nothing”.

[DRACARYS]

I always thought poison immunity was a random passive skill devs put to monsters just to fill the blanks🤔

[Guardian]

@Exu

double and even triple poison eater crit when only one monster is poisoned

Yes. This should be changed @Dev_VKC. Even monsters that are poison immune get killed while double or triple poison eater skills target posioned monsters

[Exu]

What about the other double moves, though?

@LemonSqueezy

Stun immunity - does its job
Sleep immunity - does its job

Sleep immunes can be critted by double dreamhunt. And stun immune monsters with double timestrike.

I think the difference here is that people are in general unwilling to kill the slept or stunned monster because it’s more valuable being left there.

[LemonSqueezy]

@Exu

I think the difference here is that people are in general unwilling to kill the slept or stunned monster because it’s more valuable being left there.

Yes. Excellent point.

I guess I overlook the killer moves for stun and sleep because as you rightly say, they’re normally for control and poison is for sleeping.

Double dreamhunt is quite rare too. Also poison is effectively piercing, whereas stealth, sheilded and HG monsters can survive double hit time strike/ sleep moves. Also as far as sleep is concerned purify will rectify the situation, whereas poison field will just keep poison going.

So I think it’s feasible to give poison immune monsters a damage reduction, whereas perhaps the others don’t need it.

[Myst]

Not in case of dual slayerbane. Damage is really low when only one mons have kill.

[DMGInterference]

@LemonSqueezy

I propose that poison immunity provides a significant damage reduction for the monster when facing poison moves like double poison eater

This is a great idea! Just a minimal addition, I think the recipient of this change should be the Poison Eater moves themselves tho, rather than Poison Immunity.

As in,

• Double Poison Eater: hits two targets, dealing more damage the more targets are poisoned

becomes

• Double Poison Eater: hits two targets, dealing more damage the more targets are poisoned and less damage the more targets with Poison Immunity

which would also apply to Double Poison Chomp and Triple Poison Eater.
I’m not sure if moves like Double Poison Siphon, Double Poison Drain etc. should be affected by this, since the damage is lower and they’re not sweeping moves.

[Myst]

Also tu of poision eater is high. And most poision are not that effective. So nerfing will kill whole meta . So only tweak is needed to oppressive mons like asmodia, Scorpio , like gazer already got but still is good. Then few counters.
I always think that adding counter is best idea instead of nerfing. It will create variety and will not kill anything. Like meta team <counter team<normal team<meta team so balanced.