Is Gremoris possibly more Op than Lemon?

I’m expecting backlash for sure. But hear me out. Before I go any further I’d like to clarify that I think Lemon absolutely needs a nerf and the second form is ridiculous. But this is why I think Gremoris needs one just as much, if not more.

  1. We know exactly when Lemon is going to arrive. End game. Probably just before a Moku lol. Most players prepare for this even before the game, by adding a purify or some sleep immunes in their endgame. This is also why you see lots of poison endgames. Counter Lemon, combo with Gazer.

Gremoris will pop up anywhere. This makes it so much harder to prepare for.

  1. Lemon is predictable. If you see a group of sleep immunes, you can probably guess what’s coming and prepare with your decision making.

Again, Gremoris can be in 5th if it wants.

  1. Support required. Lemon sleeps both sides and this means it needs set up. Often paired with a bundle blazer and some lacklustre sleep immunes. If you have 2 immunes on your team, then it’s almost 50:50, as Lemon has limited options and bundle is doing nothing.

Gremoris can work entirely by itself. No set up required. It’s completely self sufficient. It even kills poison (it’s counter) with its SS.

  1. Gremoris has dreamy entrance and comes in at 80% speed, with a 100% chance quell (sleep) In broken play this is incredibly fast and the chances are you have 2 enemies sleeping and 3 other useable monsters on your side.

Unlike Lemon, which has slept its own, or is weighed down by Bundleblazer. I know quell has to be used on monsters with kills, but chances are they’re the ones you’re relying on to sleep. At only 59TU later and two enemies sleeping. Chances are a 3rd will be asleep soon. I don’t care if Quell can only be used once on each monster. That’s all most players need.

  1. Invoke is excellent. While 2 guys are sleeping, Gremoris can pretty much charge anything, again proving its versatility when it comes to support. It’s perfect for creating deadweight and removing your own deadweight, not through sacrificing but by charging.

Ultimately, Lemon is predictable, you have time to prepare and you know the set up is going to slow them down a bit. Gremoris can turn the tide anywhere in a match and will sleep 2 but more likely 3. This is so much harder to prepare for, while it needs very little set up.

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all of those are true indeed, but for me (as far as ive faced gremoris users mainly sec form) centaureon somehow find its way and helped me

but i remember against DMG daniel, he couldnt do anything that major, because of the other sleep supports and nightswatch damage, the instant purify helpd a bit in this scenario

and its very true, she needs hardly any set up lol

Agreed. This is why I’m running lava entrance into toxic entrance for my endgame but it doesn’t do much to help early game sleep.

what is gremoris

Are you writing it down as your next monster to go for? :wink:

The effective time of the lemon is 250tu.in fact.you can set the lemon after the 7th position.

A few things:

  1. The toxic killer damage is terrible, it really doesn’t kill things. In the test battle it had us using it against Valzareign for the type advantage so it could one-shot.

  2. Quell can only sleep things one time. If they get purified then there’s nothing Gremoris can do to them. Basically this makes her extremely susceptible to any sleep counters.

  3. Quell can be blocked by protectors and then will fail. Now I don’t want to encourage over use of protectors but it’s a notable counter that can really disrupt what she wants to do.

I do think she’s a bit pushed and doesn’t need speed quite as high as 80%. However, I think it’s easy to overrate her impact with quell due to its counters being so severe. What it ultimately does (if not countered) is punish a team that’s got kills with each of its monsters and generally stop the opponent from continuing to kill their way through your team. Gremoris is one of those monsters that needs to be dealt with before its teammates, unless your sweeper has insomnia/sleep immunity.

I’m fine with her as a strong sleep mythic. Only thing I’d consider nerfing is her speed… to something like 60-70%, just to give a bit more opportunity to deal with her before the first quell.

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I must admit that she is very annoying.but for some control teams. lemon is obviously much better than she. It is a good choice to reduce the speed appropriately.

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In addition.I have to refute your point. The position of the lemons is not predictable. I have seen some teams with lemons in the front position. They swept most of my team until my sleep counter come out.

Gremoris is a better comeback monster but trust me, that’s situational too.
Hence that I believe she is OP.

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If you looked at the percentage of where Lemons are played, I bet the vast majority are within slots 13-16. Sure, someone might be playing one earlier, but these people are a small minority.

I don’t know man. 100% sleep is still deadly. The problem is that it can target the purifiers. The only things which will save the game then are the likes of Cent, Moji etc.

Sure protectors can help, but due to the fact it works on its own, Protectors can easily die before it gets its first turn. Quell’s TU is so low, maybe even the second turn.

The effective time of lemon is 250tu instead of 400tu, so putting 13-16 is a wrong choice

I’m not saying it isn’t. But every time I see it, it’s 13-16. I can’t remember the last time I saw it anywhere else.

No its the right choice

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Please explain why

Well generally you run the risk of the passive not activating so most people place it towards the end of your team. I’ve seen thaiger run lemon in his midgame because he was using a duel frontline so he was almost always gonna pass 250secs before lemon entered.

Yeah I played a match the other day where Lemon didn’t activate