The caniswyrm buff sounds really good but in general all the protect focus should get hold ground.
Ziber - don’t give him backstab for the love of god lol. I can already see the death revengers lined up with constant stab double retri’s and a tank and give turner to speed things up.
Teamturner - Assisted all move would probably be better than the give turn and remove the oppressiveness as well as the speed reduction to that of the super epics. in that case it might be alright to leave teamturn alone as a skill
Goldtail - does a higher sleep chance to 75% (it’s only 15%) really warrant her to be equal in speed for sleeps to shadowhunter and stormloch while not having Bloodthirst or hold ground? I’d say either make it 60 seconds or at least give her a hold ground passive / stun immunity passive or anything else to compensate for her lack of any defense if the TU is upped to 70.
Caniswyrm - I like the change but not everyone has him though.
Deodragon - Not sure you want to do that. with a give turner if you double the power its about equivalent to 400 second megabomb which can be used within 2 seconds … sounds kind of too strong.
Novablast - don’t do anything. Soulstealer if he fails his DS all he is in essence a useless monster. the others can still pack a punch with assisted all damage.
Soulstealer - don’t do anything sleep all is a chance event and might or might not hit. its a gamble to bet on sleep all. Moreover Abyss leads and twinkiller/robin leads will generally take him out very easily. dropping his speed to 55 would allow an assisted line to simply blow him up before he’s even able to do anything and an assisted line is pretty much one of the few teams Soulstealer can garantuee a Death sentence all against.
If anything do something about frostrider. if well protected and without a poisoner on the enemy side he’s pretty much a garantueed sleep (given a 25% chance that he misses a purifier). moreover he can switchback to wake up his whole team which makes it seem like soulstealer is very strong while it’s actually frostrider enabling. I’d say drop the speed on frostrider so you have more time to do something before he can lock you down.
Aurodragon - don’t do that. he has no use for twin summon entrance - he’s not meant to use his throw, his main purpose is the reincarnation. if anything increase the chance for reincarnation to 50-60% and leave the rest as is. this would make him viable and a target to focus down before anything else
And that’s exactly why it needs a nerf. the give turn spam. you say you wipe the first 6-10 mons off the back of it call it “no fun” but say they should not be adressed?
I think the main change needs to be kongs throw setting up Ziberius. I don’t think Kong or Ziberius need changing I just think that double retribution should need a monster on the field to die not one at the rear of the team or not a self sacrificer. I think it should have to be killed by the opponent, cannibalise or death roulette. Not throw or sacrifice such as heal all, sleep/stun bomb
It’s only a suggestion, but how about reduce the sleep time a bit, so people have a fair chance to come back, after dead sentence all?. But still so sleep monster have a fair chance to pull off deam hunt?
Are you replying to someone or could you elaborate? I presume you are more complaint about frost rider one on one more than sleep in general?
@hidan
-Already conceded the point regarding backstab
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regarding gold tail, yes I think it does warrant it. Bloodthirst isn’t really needed with an almost guarenteed sleep after the dreamhunt buff. And the extra 20 seconds would not make gold tail unviable. In fact the difference drops to only 17 at +9 because the + scales higher.
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regarding SS. The only assisteds that would outspeed him at 55 are the create duplicate ones. The biters would be on even footing. Also as SS has one of the games highest defenses and as well as HG, it will take a minimum of three attacks to kill him with assisted.
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nova blast- see previous replies. Change not recommended to make him < > or = to soul stealer. It is suggested to support the assisted water and earth which are underpowered in pvp.
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Auro dragon. This change is intended to give the rockroid team a solid attacker to give a baha, dolph, monkey, burnsalot team a chance to compete. Reincarnation at 60 would just make him a more abusable mon in ultimate challenge. That is not something I am aiming to to do in these recommended changes.
disagree on the goldtail part. I don’t think looking at overall PvP it warrants to nerf her TU on sleep without compensating it somehow.
guess the SS part is warranted if the other changes are taken into effect.
Nova blast… I dont really know if it will make a big difference. I do not see these mons used often in PvP. I’d surely try out my Warca if they do change it.
I’d still like to see Aurodragon his reincarnation chance increased. Just because it can be abused in ultimate challenge I dont think is a viable reason to block his uniqueness otherwise they should do something about the Atra Nebel strategy. He’d just turn into another throw monster by applying this change. Might as well remove the reincarnation as a whole as it is now since it’s way too unreliable.
I agree with give turn being replaced with assisted move all. However the speed should stay the same, if they have the same speed as the SE TT mons then they would be outclassed by them. Atm not a lot of ppl have +9 for their leg TTs unlike for their SE TTs which most do. So in a frontline battle the SE would always have the advantage and could simply knockback the leg TT. They still need to live up to their legend statuses…
As for the other changes:
. Zibel: the opponent has to kill your mon, not yourself. Or at least make it so only the mons on the field could activate its double retribution.
. Nova: they are bad mons anyway. Reducing the secs for novablast means nothing since they would die easily. Give them hold ground to survive longer probably…
. Auro: reincarnation needs a buff to around 60-70%. Even then it is still bad…since you can only use rearguard heal once so late game autopoison instantly wins.
. Soulstealer: it’s fine as it. Those who want its speed to be reduced so they can have a “chance” to win obviously don’t know how to beat it. Assisted teams don’t necessarily have to be frontline so claiming it would give them a chance is nonsense.
. Frostrider: reduce its speed, replace shield entrance with hold ground or just increase the TU of its one on one to 100. It’s not a huge problem but there are some who want it nerfed…
. Goldtail: potent sleep TU needs increasing to 70 and in return increase its defenses or give it hold ground. It is a good mon but it sleep locks teams too easily…give purifiers a chance…
[quote name=“TheGreatest” post=“86061” timestamp=“1472222477”]
. Soulstealer: it’s fine as it. Those who want its speed to be reduced so they can have a “chance” to win obviously don’t know how to beat it. Assisted teams don’t necessarily have to be frontline so claiming it would give them a chance is nonsense.
This above is exactly the kind of comment that needs to be avoided here. The goal here is balance. No one is claiming anyone can’t beat soulstealer. I created this thread and suggested the change and if you are implying that I personally don’t know how to deal with SS and am suggesting this only because of that then I really can’t help you without coming across egotistical. Either way unhelpful.
if you did indeed misunderstand the goal of these changes then please re-read and recomment.
I personally dont think Goldtail needs a nerf, the potent sleep is what makes it special, if the time increased to 70 then its just like the other two sleepers and it doesn’t have hg or bloodthirst. I rarely ever see other Goldtail as its a rarer legend so its not like everybody is out puttin everybody to sleep. its so slow to begin with, there’s been times its dropped and got killed without ever getting a turn.
@Alucard
I understand the purpose of the topic. And the only reason i make these points is because there are ppl out their that would find a way to imbalance a meta because they can’t succeed in it. For example “penguini is too OP, nerf last bite”. I am not saying that soulstealer is unbeatable, because it is clearly not.
But you can’t say you are rebalancing pvp by suggesting to strengthen one thing by weakening the other, hence “make this mon slower so this mon could outspeed it and beat it”.
maybe saying that ppl make suggestions because they can’t beat it is unconstructive and unnecessary. I apologise for this but honestly it is true at times.
If i came out as arrogant/egotistical in the comment then i’m sorry but that was not the intention. I am just giving my opinion that i am entitled to do…
I wasn’t directing it at you btw in regards to soulstealer. It was a generic statement.
On the TT issue I agree that give turn should be replaced, but instead of slowing them down I think just limiting TT so that it can not be used twice within 300 seconds would be better.
Also zibel is fine as is only thing that made him op was when people found out about the zib kong combo. If zibel has to use a move other than DR on his first turn then he is much easier to deal with. As long as zibel can not use DR on his first turn he is fine.
Put 4 death revengers in front line - counters every line…
Put 4 death revengers in front line - counters every line…
"But you can’t say you are rebalancing pvp by suggesting to strengthen one thing by weakening the other, hence “make this mon slower so this mon could outspeed it and beat it”.
I think that is exactly how you balance something.
@scotty
I would actually prefer the TT timer to the speed reduction, but I was trying to make suggestions without adding new mechanics. If this is something they could justify the time to program then its definitely a better solution.
Yeah whichever way is easier
For the record, I said it should be addressed, and used my less than stellar team to support why I think it should 
My bad…let me elaborate. For mons like leg TTs where both TT and give turn could lead to OP strats, it is justifiable to change them to make them “weaker” to make the game fair. Anyway their main purpose is to go boom.
But mons like soulstealer where their main purpose is to pull of something like death sentence all can’t be made “weaker” so they can’t perform their main role. If it was made slower, more mons will be able to kill it and its usage would soon decrease. It would get decimated by assisted frontlines. How would it be rebalancing if certain mons become redundant?
I understand that ppl want more choices to beat it and that is fine. But we already have mons like robin that solve this issue.
instead of “make this mon slower so this mon can kill it” it should be more like “make this mon slower so other mons have a chance”. That is what balancing something is or we would get an endless cycle.
If you want me to edit my first comment then i will gladly do it. It looks harsh and unnecessary…
my mistake then must have missread somewhere
No need, I’m just trying to keep this on topic. It’s not supposed to be a this mon needs a buff, nerf that mon thread. The points is recommend a set of changes that would create a more diverse field of teams at the top end.
The list of changes should be taken as a whole not as each single change in a vacuum. Yes as SS exists now, I don’t think change is necessary. But given the relative decrease in power I’ve proposed to certain other legends, one of which is the main counter to SS in pvp right now, I think not touching SS would leave him as the most powerful strategy left. At that point we would arrive at the same place we are at now. Top players would be inclined to play that team because it is inherently the strongest, and we would have too many SS teams. The same is currently occurring with zibel. Yes it can be defeated but it’s the strongest line so it’s the one people play most because it offers more advantage than any other line.
Fair enough. I agree with your points regarding SS and zibel. As you implied: you can’t change one mon without changing another. I understand 
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Tbh i am tired of facing the same old SS and Zibel strats. So a few changes would diversify top tier pvp…
Anyway back to the topic:
. Caniswyrm+protect focus mons: i agree with increasing its speed since knockback next could actually be used to prevent of bane, motor and other entrance mons from entering. Also i agree that it and the other protect focus mons should get HG for longetivity.
Also for the protect focus mons you could replace accelerate team with knock back next so it has both versions of knockback. Once you accelerate there is no point in doing it again and your other mons may not even get a chance to use their accelerated moves. After protect focus there is more you can do with “knock back+knockback next” than with “knockback+accelerate team.”