This game has 2000 monsters, not 20. A stale meta IS a problem.
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I found that the meta was fairly diverse in comparison to last season. So in other words, the meta isn’t that diverse because people still use the same monsters over and over again. A little bit less so this season maybe, but if you look at the most used pvp monsters you are gonna see the same angelion, dusicyon, and flocculasaurus along with some other S+ tiers and maybe a few poison monsters.
Smh my head, everybody is like “nerf Canishogun” here, “nerf Dolphreeze” there… but nobody is asking why tf Ahuizard’s RAW Throw is still 50TU! On a Stun Immune monster nonetheless!
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I personally don’t care about ahuizard one aoe attack and it’s dead LUL
This is a good argument actually .
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Hahaha that has bothered me as well for quiet sometime but I’ve learnt to accept it
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Oh yeah ahuii is probably the super epic I want the most that would be awesome for my link fire. I think they could make raw throw 70tu or something like that but seeing as I might get it in the future I’ll hold off on suggesting a nerf 
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Nerfing the top twenty won’t fix it; it’ll only make another twenty the new meta. Besides, not every monster in the game will be useful in a PvP environment; that’s how these types of games work.
I disagree. The reason monsters like angelion, dusicyon, and flocculasaurus are the most used monsters in every single pvp season since their release is because they offer so much more value than any of the other monsters in the game and they are widely available. There are always going to be some monsters that are better than others, but it is a huge problem for the game when there are a handful of monsters that almost everyone has and are just auto-includes so you can win more games. Even in wacky teams like mine, including something like dusicyon can’t go wrong. It is a huge target because of shield field that dies to three hits minimum, it can kill medium defense monsters with confident strike that can be used at full potential at least once with raw second wind, and it makes the monsters that follow it so much more powerful if it survives. Dusy is a win more monster that everyone has and almost everyone uses and monsters like this kill diversity in the meta. That’s just one example, I could go on and on about other ones like flocc and angelion which are also super common and extremely strong.
If the devs would make some of the monsters that are always used in top ranking teams slightly less powerful but still S+ tier, we would see a lot more variation in teams. There are so many legendaries and super epics that have absolutely no use in this game and it is such a waste. Sure, not every monster is going to have a use, but it gets ridiculous when you have over 2/3s of the entire monsterdex consisting of useless monsters that you just roll your eyes whenever you hatch them. Pvp would be so much more fun to play and to teambuild if they would allow more innovation by adjusting some of the most used monsters, including ones that aren’t the three I mentioned (keep in mind I own dusy and flocc so I wouldn’t advocate for them to be weakened unless I thought it was a really really good idea), and making a few of the thousand monsters they added to the game actually useful.
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I’ll give an example in another strategy game I used to play. Hearthstone is card game that’s basically Magic the Gathering but online. There was a card called Ragnaros the Firelord and it was a card played in the lategame that offered guaranteed value on the first turn it was played that was also very hard to kill. It was quite similar to dusy/angelion/flocc in that a lot of people had it and a lot of people just auto included it into their deck as a win-more card. Whenever you would be deckbuilding and thinking about what lategame cards you wanted to use, instead of thinking, “Hmm, what card would pair well with my archetype in the lategame?” people would often find themselves thinking, “Hmm, is this card really worth putting in my deck over Rangaros the Firelord?”
Having a card that resulted in a mindset like this was unhealthy for the game, so when the developers of Hearthstone created a format called Standard that consisted only of the cards released in the last two years or were in the classic set, they moved Ragnaros to the Hall of Fame which was where they put classic cards that couldn’t be used in Standard because they were too powerful. Now for obvious reasons, the devs can’t just delete monsters similar to Rangaros the Firelord, but they can adjust them so they are still super good monsters but not to the point where people just auto include them into their team so they win more games. Just like with Hearthstone, adjusting some of these monsters would result in more innovative teams because people could feel free to step away from some of the monsters they’ve used pvp season after pvp season and try something new and fun that could actually succeed in the higher pvp brackets.
A good point, but rather than nerfing the S+ monsters, it’ll be better to simply buff the other ones instead. But your comment about 2/3 of the entire roster being useless is a gross over-exaggeration. Several players have made those monsters work brilliantly in their teams, without relying on the monsters you’ve mentioned.
I get where you’re coming from; PvP would be a lot more fun if more monsters saw use. But how would the people who love to use the S+ monsters feel about them getting nerfed? They’d feel foolish for wasting money on something that was nerfed for the sake of balance, and would be hesitant to roll in future eggs in the event that their newly acquired monster gets nerfed. At the end of the day, the devs haven’t nerfed those monsters in the 2 or so years of their existence, so I highly doubt that they’ll get nerfed, especially since they’re still major money makers, or at least Angel is given that the other two are shop-exclusive. Still, I respect the fact that you took the time to write a compelling argument for your stance.
If the top20 monsters gets nerfed to the level of next 20 then we have 40 viable monsters. That’s twice as much variation already.
Do it a couple more times and the game becomes healthy… with the exception of mythics.
I’ll respond once I get back to my computer I don’t wanna type this on a phone lol
You say that it’ll increase the amount to 40 viable monsters, but that may be a bit on the optimistic side. After all, if several members of the second twenty outclass the first twenty following the nerfs, then it won’t be 40 viable monsters as you theorised, but 35 or even 30 monsters. Which is still a 50% increase, mind you, so it is an improvement I’ll give you that much.
Your second comment however, has me concerned. By your logic, the devs should nerf the top 40 within 2-3 months to increase the total to 80; 80 to 160, 160 to 320. At that stage, you would’ve had dozens of monsters nerfed when they didn’t even warrent a nerf in the first place. Mind you, it is a theoretical example, but that’s the implication of your comment.
I’ll end my part of the nerf discussion with a point I may have touched on; the devs will not nerf monsters such as Angel, Magma, Cent and the like because they’re major money-makers. To nerf their most valuable sources of income would cause the consumers to get angry, especially since this type of game depends on people whaling for the best monsters. Sure, if they want players to try a new strategy, they’ll release a few more monsters and maybe buff some older ones as well, but they’ll always keep their golden children safe for the sake of easy income.
Oh I know that they won’t do it, but that doesn’t change the fact that what they are doing hurts the game.
Also not that it matters for this argument, but I’d argue that even discussing the business side of things, a lasting healthy game is better in the long run than just milking whales desperate to win. My 2 cents.
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What I proposed isn’t to simply nerf the strongest monsters, but to change the monsters that are used in every single top tier team so that they are still extremely powerful (in otherwords, when they get reevaluated they still fall in the S+ tier), but not used so ■■■■■■■ often. Take a look at magmarinus. It used to have dual slayerbane all and people would just slap it into the back of their team because it was a stun immune sweeper that almost always got a few kills. Did they nerf it so people wouldn’t use it anymore? No. They changed the monster so it is used less often because people need to properly build around it so it can be super strong again. My team uses magmarinus and I set it up so the fire link is a lot harder to break so I can use link slayerbane all. Magmarinus is still a top tier monster but it isn’t just another win more monster.
Changing the most used monsters would not result in the slippery slope situation you described because the main problem is how easy it is to just slap one of these monsters into your team. The power level of them isn’t what I want to be changed. That type of change would be warranted for monsters like old scorpiogeist or bastia. The type of change I proposed would focus on making them harder to fit into a team, but still extremely strong. This will allow people to branch out and find more strategies that can bring them to a high placement in pvp. You also wouldn’t have a large problem with people feeling that they wasted their money on eggs because the monsters would still be extremely powerful, they just would require a minimum teambuilding skill to use them effectively. It doesn’t have to be as big of a change like with magmarinus, it just has to make it so when you look at what monsters are used most every season you see the same boring monsters every time.
@NMEduck You’re right; perhaps I was being a bit hasty in my earlier judgement.
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Ok guys, there are opinions flying all over the place here. Some are saying nerf because it’s too strong, some saying dont nerf because it’s not popular, now its dont nerf because its top 20 (meaning its popular) and plz nerd because its top 20 to make other things more viable, now dont nerf it because of Whales and plz nerf it for the health of the game… you guys see where things are contradicting here right?
The reason things are contradicting themselves is because everyone keeps trying to pull different reasons to support their arguments, but realistically all these are coming from bias points of view. This is not a matter of spending money or not to dictate whether a monster should be adjusted, that should never ever be at the heart of the matter for players, that is a matter for the developers to decide what cost them money and what makes them money, so honestly that part of the discussion I feel has no place here as it has nothing to do directly with this monster and its impact between players.
Someone referenced Magic the Gathering or Yugioh earlier, and by comparison that’s not a bad thing to do, but there are a few major differences. Magic The Gathering comes out with new sets multiple times per year, and every new set one of the previous years sets cycle out and are no longer allowed in competitive play. Yes, they have their EDH games to play but as far as what stays competitive, they force people to spend hundreds of dollars on the newest set multiple times per year to stay competitive. Not choose to, force to because otherwise they cannot play the game.
Yugioh is a bit different. Nothing ever cycles out, but they have a ban list, similar to the “special rule” during the first parts of PvP each month. This is something that could be interesting to have during Ranked PVP as it would force different monsters to be used by discretion, but then the players with smaller collections would suffer as some of the monsters they most rely on could be banned from that specific PvP.
As we can see there is no real major way to alter the game and make it more fair for everyone other than handling monsters on a case by case basis. Now for those of you that did not read the Opening Post, I am NOT calling for a nerf on Canishogun - i am seeing opinions whether people think it deserves to be looked at again for the effect of Flame Eater having the TU reduction regardless of what it kills.
Having begun with that simplicity, the comments have ranged from intelligent to outrageous with the Goldoids being brought up and Counter Strike/DCS and Underdog and etc etc, so in my opinion this thread has been a success because, obviously, there is still a huge amount of controversy over Canishogun.
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Thanks for offering your thoughts I’m glad you see what I meant. I think I might move these posts to a new thread and organize my thoughts a bit better.
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