My take on the sleep immunes

After using OoO frontlines for years, I turned away from it when Onis Secret Skill became too oppressive because I never got a OoO legend and things got really annoying when I tried to fight against OniAngel with my OoO Epic. I gave it a go again in the 10 vs 10 PvP Season and finished inside the Top 100 but I had to realize again that things would be much easier with a OoO Legend. Despite never getting Oni or Stratus, I do own almost all sleep immune monsters and the recent discussion made me build teams around them so that I could give a profound assessment of the current situation.

I still think that the real problem is Onis SS which simply should be changed or be given a restriction but I am afraid it will hit the sleep immunes and therefore I want to make a proposal on how to balance or change those monsters in order to keep their original design intention alive and basically not destroy them completely like the motor nerf destroyed motor. I also think that a nerf should be the ultima ratio of a balance discussion and therefore I will judge in dubio pro reo if a think that monster is right on the edge.

Also the theoretical basis of this idea is the concept of two grades of Sleep immunes. Grade 1 is a complete sleep immunity. So these monsters will stay awake while your own OoO is active. Grade 2 sleep immunity will make monsters immune to enemy sleep effects but they are not immune to sleep effects applied by your own.

I invite everybody to discuss this issue with me but it would be helpful if we could keep it as objective as possible. I know that certain monster cause a lot of rage and I can understand that some people just want to see these monsters burn but the rage of the player base led to some really hard nerfs for some monsters that had to be corrected afterwards because they made these monsters basically disappear because they were completely unusable. Thats not the goal of this discussion. At least thats what I can tell you from more than 3 years of experience with the pvp meta.

My Suggestion:

Angelion: Definitely a Grade 2 candidate. He would still counter OoO FLs and sleep in general quite hard and basically loses nothing from this change. On the other hand it would be much easier to get rid of Oni or other Sleep immunes if angel wouldnt be there and awake with retribution, raw bloodfury and soul exchange. I think Angels propose should be to counter Sleep and OoO FLs and not make them even more OP when he is combined with oniblade.

Bunkerbeast: When combining Gyo and Bunker you will learn really soon that Bunker is the true pain in the ***. Due to his element he cant be killed by another gyo (just as an example because he is very common in the FL and especially in OoO FLs) and is also immune to counter strike due to his shield. Compared with Gyo he also cant be disabled with a hard hit and also in comparison to gyo he manages to survive really long on the battlefield. His mortar is also a guaranteed one shot, even on some grass type monsters. I know that giving him grade 2 will probably make him disappear from FLs (and he is clearly designed to be a FL monster) but given the fact that Oni will keep his double OoO I rate him much more of problem than Gyomurai.

Gyomurai: This is one of the guys who is right on the edge but giving him the benefit of the doubt I think he should keep his full sleep immunity. Especially because he already got nerfed once so this time there should be other candidates first in line. He can be stunned and also be disabled quite easily. His link sba can be a threat but it is also quite easy to see it coming and prevent it from happening. Also a Saberzor in the frontline can keep gyo in check for quite some time. That is usually when he relies on Bunkerbeast to pave the way for him. Furthermore Gyo is designed to work in OoO teams, bunker can also work in Mortar teams so when it comes down to these two, I would leave Gyo with Grade 1 sleep immunity and give Grade 2 to bunker.

Just a Sidenote: You will still lose monsters from Gyos attacks. I wouldnt never dare to doubt that. But the goal is to make it balance not to make OoO Sleep immune combo a paper tiger at all.

Trviathan: Can be annoying but really relies on link water and that there is no poison at all. All you need to do is to make sure he isnt stealthed and even then a monster that only has double kill moves isnt in particular what you are looking for in terms of OoO entrance control. Shield and HG are also not his friends. Also I rarely have seen anybody complaining about Triviathan. Clear Grade 1.

Jackalhotep: This one of the monsters I would like to see burn but I just have to accept that he is designed to work with OoO and that giving him Grade 2 would completely ruin the concept of the monster. So sadly I cant say nothing else but that he has to keep his full sleep immunity.

The Saintfeather: Clearly designed to be full sleep immune. No discussion is needed here.

Onyxia: Monster needs to be fully sleep immune to fulfil its purpose. Also its one of the very pros of the monster whereas it already has a long list of cons. Just leave him alone.

I think those are the relevant ones. The sleep immune poison monsters are obvious counters to sleep, there is no sense at all in changing their sleep immunity. Nobody complained about Blazebones aswell so there is also no need for a change.

The rest of the sleep immune club (Diredemon, Hiberzor etc.) is clearly designed to be completely sleep immune and since they disappeared completely in the current meta there is no good reason to touch them.

Looking forward to the discussion :slight_smile:

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Saints ss puts everyone except itself asleep, always been like that

Thanks, remembered it wrong and corrected it :slight_smile:

Or let’s just replace oniblade’s ss to something like instant or swift hypnotise ??!!

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That would be perfect but some people just don’t want to see their oniblade changed and want to keep him as annoying as he is. I am afraid it will hit the sleep immunes. Sadly. I mean why should you solve a problem by making a change to one monster when you can simply nerf a whole bunch.

They will learn to adjust with the changes eventually. Devs must drop the ball and change it’s Secret skill… Grades of sleep immunity might complicate things [ or give the level of complexity veterans seek ] for players when devs are actually dumbing down everything lol… Plain brainless pay to win monsters era !

Oni needs 2 kill to charge it’s blood move , first OoO can give one kill easily and secret skill should give an opportunity to get ONE second kill… then it should be bloodthirst!

Thank God I haven’t seen OoO paired with Sakura yet ! That’ll be nightmare with this ss

Everyone saying all these complicated changes.

Just buff it’s counter’s speed. Like drako, cobra, cannibalize with bane 5th, etc…

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If they are going to change Oni’s skill, a purify all would be nice to make sleep more competitive against poison, but not as much as a second OoO is in general

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Angelion says hi to your useless buff. Or do you want to give bane roaring entrance?

That was me sitting here and pulling ideas off the top of my head.

Do you agree with the general idea or not?

I might repeat myself, the Problem isnt OoO, the Problem is Oni. The best solution would be a change of Onis SS and everything will be fine.

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Well the question is, do we want the monster killed or not?

If not, then we need a secret skill that’s going to be just slightly less effective then what we have.

time restriction would be fine. Or potent double sleep. Simply just not this mess.

Remember when everyone ditched oniblade when stratus came out :joy:

I miss my Stratus, Apollo, Talo, Ultima FL with Auro at 5 team, those were the days :sob:

I agree the general idea about changing sleep immunity.

Replace Oni second 1-1 with overconfident strike.

Or swift toxic killer/stunkiller/protect killer.

But 2 1-1 with Angel is absolutely bullsheets.

And Jackal shouldnt lose sleep immunity but stun immunity is also too much for an SE.

Oni was meant to be a sweeper so its ss must help get its other kill, I suggest swift dream crush 100TU or swift dream hunt 30TU

Thank you for the feedback guys.

We have noticed the impact OoO creates in the current meta. We would prefer to assign the monsters with a different Sleep Immunity rather than changing Oni’s SS. @Killerdog and @Unown also messaged us with the similar idea while ago, and we have been working on it ever since.

That would be awesome if you can share your thought on which monsters may receive grade 1 and grade 2 Sleep Immunity.

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Can we define sleep 1 and 2?

Sleep 1: total sleep immunity to all sleep moves

Sleep 2: insomnia - sleep vulnerable to your teammates but immune to enemy sleep.

Sleep 1 - total sleep immunity.

  1. Jackal (but lose sun immunity FFS)
  2. Diredemon
  3. Onyxia
  4. Kamishogun

Sleep 2 - insomnia (vulnerable to ally sleep)

  1. Angelion
  2. Angelion
  3. Angelion
  4. Gyo
  5. Bunker

But really just change the Oni SS.

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