Possible bug

[Rctuga]

Was playing pvp few minuts ago and my raizen failed to 1 shot the dark flutter on 2nd form but he can 1 shot the fully evolved one easely so is there a bug like on hordes with some absorvers in 2nd form have a litlle buffed stats?
Btw that flutter is able on normal eggs or just rares?
Another thing😁 can someone post the cat zone legend stats and moves? Thanks

[Xyzencross]

Flutter violet is not in rare eggs anymore, only in regular

[RISE_Alex]

here

[ILAGaLOT]

2nd form monsters due to how the game is programmed have higher def stats then fully evolved ones

[Unown]

And that’s how mafia works

[Rctuga]

I know that what i didnt know was that also worked on PVP
Devs could explain this

[Mr.X]

Ironically its true you can test this out with the

Bird se wall breaker
Grass se protector

I had tested when the bird se was introduced am not sure what where the ratios but i do rember 2 second form had better odds of surviving the wall breaker.

For those that didnt know the grass se protector has a chance of surviving the wall breaker from the thunder bird se.

There is a team in test teams where you can test out this theory

[Z19Kiwi]

i thought the issue was about buffed def stat. wall breaker ignores that. if Mossgoliath survives it’s mostly because of it’s type advantage i believe

[Unown]

Higher stats. That’s not only defence

[Rctuga]

This need to be fixed
Devs? Are you there ?still on vacations?

[Mr.X]

A bug i have encountered during this pvp is a monster will come in but nothing shows and the game skips ur turns.

[Killerdog]

@Mr.X

second form had better odds of surviving the wall breaker.

It is DEFINITELY a defence thing, therefore any attack with piercing ignores it and this statement is wrong. I’m not sure how you got to this conclusion because it shouldn’t have been happening.

I’ve tried to explain this issue with unevolved monsters to Dev_VKC a couple of times and I’m not sure whether he, or the other Devs, know it is a problem. I’ve FINALLY just made some video footage which I will share here in a little bit proving what is going on and hopefully getting some proper numbers on what is going on.

Before anyone bashes on the Devs I’d like to point out how the game is designed to have all monsters fully evolved when they fight. When monsters are fully evolved then all the numbers work out beautifully. It’s just unevolved monsters or untrained monsters that start messing with the way the game calculates defence. No event works differently except for PvP, which automatically maxes the speed stat for all monsters.

[Killerdog]

So first I have to get a few things straight. Assuming all monsters are evolved the damage calculation is as follows…

Damage dealt = Attack stat * [move power] * [opponent’s toughness] * elemental modifier, with up to ±10% variance

Attack stat - the attack stat of the monster using the move
Move power - a number specific to the move being used which is the strength
Elemental modifier - 1 if normal, 0.67 if weak and 1.5 if strong against that element
Opponent’s toughness - the difference in stat arrangement of the attacker and the defender, limited to the range [0.5 - 2] (explained below)

Using the legendary stats we can look at “opponent’s toughness”…
Full attack - 5700 atk, 3350 def
Standard attack - 5150 atk, 3950 def
Rounded - 4600 atk, 4600 def
Standard defence - 4175 atk, 5225 def
Full defence - 3725 atk, 5850 def

What the game basically does is take the general attack stat of the attacker and the general defence stat of the defender then it does attack / defence.
E.g. 1) Say you’re both “standard attack” then opponent’s toughness = 5150/3950 = 1.30
E.g. 2) Attacker is full defence and defender rounded then opponent’s toughness = 3725/4600 = 0.81

Now that’s simplifying it a little. In fact what it’s doing is taking the base attack of the attacker (non-buffed) and the defence of the defender (counts any monster buff) then buffs or nerfs the defence of the defending monster dependant on the difference in their number of stars. For example, if a legendary attacks a super epic then the super epic gets buffed defence to make it have the defence stats of a legendary. The classic SE protectors with ~4550 defence take damage as if they have 5850 defence when attacked by a legendary. This is where I believe things mess up with unevolved monsters… they’re getting their defence buffed more than they should be.

A couple of notes that I somehow didn’t manage to fit above:

• “opponent’s toughness” is limited to the range 0.5-2. When fighting super buffed monsters you basically get opponent’s toughness = 0.5. However, as super buffed monsters attack you it is their base (unbuffed) attack used in the calculation so it’s not as high as 2. Interestingly, as buffed monsters attack each other the way this is calculated means they will deal less damage to each other than normal (if none of them were buffed).
• Piercing moves and excessive force automatically set the opponent’s toughness value to 2. This is why we say they ignore defence.
• Since the exact defence stat does not matter (only the stat arrangement does) any, say, full attack monster will take the same amount of damage from attacks no matter how many stars they have (in theory - might not be true for monsters below 4*). Therefore, the only difference between the different stars of monsters other than movesets is their higher attack and higher health.

The disclaimer photos

Below are screenshots of all my monsters used in the testing videos. As you can see, all these monsters are unevolved and the Tiamad is not fully trained. Every monster in my team is “full attack”, so they should all be taking the same amount of damage except for Tiamad.

So now we can take a look at the real testing…

I do the following averages cumulatively for each enemy attack.

1. Nightrider (ultradusk) = average 1289 but Freeznix takes 1054 (0.82x damage)
2. Noxdragon (assisted dusk) = average 2006 but Freeznix takes 1570 (0.78x damage)
3. Nightrider (ultradusk) = average is now 1302 but unevolved take an average of 1066 (0.82x damage)
4. Alphagear (gigablight) = 1176 to Shadowyrm, later 989 to unevolved (0.84x damage)
5. Noxdragon (assisted dusk) = average is now 2003 but unevolved take an average of 1677 (0.84x damage)
6. Nightrider (ultradusk) = weirdly does less to the legendaries, getting messed up by the untrained legendary?? I won’t include this because I can’t explain it but note the untrained legendary takes tiny bit more damage than evolved legendaries.
7. Blightwyrm (ultradusk) = average 1020 but untrained Tiamad takes 1053 (tiny bit more)

So conclusions we can make so far… Unevolved “full attack” monsters appear to be taking roughly 0.84x damage (looking at the later cumulative values). The untrained Tiamad is taking a tiny bit more damage than other monsters (note: its current trained defence is 75% of what it would be fully trained). Also, Terragoul the mythic is not taking any unusual damage from legendaries which suggests it is to do with the buffing done when there is a star difference between the attacker and the defender.

Another video…

1. Angelion (assisted nova) = 960 to evolved but unevolved take average 740 (0.77x damage)
2. Shadowyrm (sleep killer) = sleep killer is 0.58 so damage should be 5605±10% but is 4522 on unevolved monster (0.81x damage)
3. Delugazar (ultradusk) = same damage to all, within normal range
4. Ziberius (ultrawave) = average 1026 but unevolved take average 839 (0.82x damage)
5. Chromera (toxic killer) = toxic killer is 0.58 so damage should be 3032 but is 3466 on Tiamad (1.14x damage)

We now have a number (1.14) for Tiamad which we can multiply by 0.75 (the percentage of defence it has compared to what it would fully trained) to get 0.86x. 0.86 is very close to the 0.82-0.84 range we seem to have for unevolved monsters, so that checks out when you consider random damage variance.

Final conclusions

• Piercing attacks ignore all defence weirdness with unevolved monsters.
• Defence weirdness only happens when the monsters are of different stars (not totally proven but some evidence to suggest this).
• Unevolved monsters appear to be taking roughly 0.82-0.84 times the damage you’d expect, given the amount of defence they have when evolved.
• Considering unevolved monsters (all but mythics) have 0.8-0.85 times the health when unevolved, they are pretty much exactly the same difficulty to kill whether they are evolved or fully trained and unevolved (as long as they are being attacked by a monster of different stars).

I was under the impression unevolved monsters took a bit less (more like 0.75x) while they had 0.84x the health, therefore making them tankier when unevolved. I’m glad to see that after some testing they aren’t tankier, but they’re the same toughness which is a bit silly considering they are lower cost and have lower stats on paper.

In most cases this defence weirdness doesn’t matter. Most monsters get important parts to their moveset when they reach their final form so they are clearly worse when unevolved. However, for any monster that doesn’t gain crucial parts from the evolution or otherwise doesn’t need the higher attack stat then you can keep them unevolved to use them with much lower cost. This is particularly the case for legendaries because they are 5 cost less when unevolved!

A few examples of monsters which are “better” unevolved:

• Windrider - final form only gets a 200TU purifying mist and there are no damage moves
• Vulpegeist - final form only gets purify all, its damage moves are strong enough anyway?
• Lagodrake - final form only gets sendback next and it’s mostly about link give turn dual
• Wrathengine - final form only gets stealth teammate, its damage move is strong enough
• Arborus and others like this - final form is just 130TU sleep single to 200TU sleep all, bloodthirst strong enough
• Mossgolem and others like this - final form only gets stealth teammate, mainly used for everything else and not damage at all

I know it’s the Devs intention to have all monsters worthwhile evolving. There will always be a few small cases of monsters that people like to use unevolved for a specific reason (e.g. Lavamane 2nd form for cheap, quick cannibalise) but if this defence weirdness can be “fixed” then it should help stop a lot of other monsters from being better in their second form than final form.

P.S. There was previously an issue with untrained monsters getting buffed, but that has been fixed. You might have seen some weirdness in PvP if anyone used a 1st form monster and it was mega tanky, e.g. I tested Tiamazus 1st form in PvP and it acted as if it had 5700 defence (way more than even the final form which has 3315). This was the thing which the Devs identified and fixed when people were making complaints about Game of Hordes. However, it was this PLUS the issue I identify here at work. We’ve got one fixed and hopefully the Devs will fix this other one too.

P.P.S. I didn’t detail my explanation for why I believe monsters are taking 0.82-0.84x the damage when unevolved because I already gave some heavy numbers and concepts in this post. Better to simply identify it and let the Devs fix it than to theorise exactly what calculations are being made by the game.

[Z19Kiwi]

Again, pretty sure it’s defence.

[Unown]

Of a move that doesn’t count defence?

[Z19Kiwi]

Wait wut? We’re talking about buffed def on unevolved monsters. Whatever ahmed was trying to tell us with wall breaker doesn’t count because it is a piercing move.