So with the testing I did today with @keets I finally figured out exactly what’s going on with the weird defence buff 1st and 2nd form monsters get. Also, my damage calculator finally works for all cases. I may still have some things wrong (this is all worked out from number crunching) but hopefully this highlights things.
I will be writing a Damage Calculation guide at some point early next year, but for now here’s some of the core content detailed for the hot topic we had recently about defence buffs.
The Damage Calculator
Damage is calculated in a weird way when it comes to the numbers. We all get a feel for it by playing, but not the specifics. I’m going to throw the formula at you then break it down and explain it before putting some numbers into it:
Damage dealt = attack stat * [move power] * [relative toughness] * [lower form buff] * elemental modifier * variance
Covering the simpler bits first…
Attack stat = the current attack stat of the monster (includes buffs like attack boost, vile rage and PvE buffs)
Elemental modifier = 1 if normal, 0.67 (2/3) if weak or 1.5 (3/2) if strong against that element
Variance = up to ±10% with equal distribution
Move power = as will be detailed in my damage calculation guide, some examples are below
Relative toughness = attacker’s stat arrangement attack / (defender’s stat arrangement defence * defence stat buffs) [limit, 0.5;2]
^ This one isn’t so obvious. What I’m referring to is the “stat arrangements” I detail in my KD's Legendaries/Mythics listed + stats thread:
| Stat arrangement | Attack stat | Defence stat |
|---|---|---|
| Full attack | 5700 | 3350 |
| Standard attack | 5150 | 3950 |
| Rounded | 4600 | 4600 |
| Standard defence | 4175 | 5225 |
| Full defence | 3725 | 5850 |
Also, any defence stat buffs like protect focus or simply the buff to PvE enemies are applied to the defence here but not the attacker’s attack. There is a limit for this factor so it can go no lower than 0.5 and no higher than 2. When we see piercing on a move this is the factor it affects and it makes it automatically equal 2. When fighting heavily buffed enemies you can expect it to be 0.5. Interestingly, when buffed enemies fight each other this is the factor which means they hit less than non-buffed monsters do to each other (relative to their health) because the attack part ignores the buff to it.
So a couple of examples:
- Full attack monster hitting a standard defence monster with 1.25x stat buff = 5700 / (5225 * 1.25) = 0.87
- Full attack hitting standard attack with 1.25x stat buff = 5700 / (3950 * 1.25) = 1.15
- Standard attack hitting standard attack with no stat buff = 5150 / 3950 = 1.30
- Rounded hitting standard attack with 3x stat buff = 4600 / (3950 * 3) = 0.5 [not 0.39]
Lower form buff = (current form max trained defence / final form defence)^2
^ Max trained defence is not easily visible in the game but in the monsterdex you can view it. This factor is the really questionable one which we’ll talk about in the section at the end of this post.
e.g. 1st form Gearcroc (Ironcroc) max trained defence is 3145, 2nd form Gearcroc (Steelcroc) has 3520 and 3rd form Gearcroc has 4090.
Hence…
1st form Gearcroc (Ironcroc) “lower form buff” = (3145 / 4090)^2 = 0.59
2nd form Gearcroc (Steelcroc) “lower form buff” = (3520 / 4090)^2 = 0.74
Essentially this means lower forms take less damage, roughly 60% if they’re first form and roughly 75% if they’re second form. It doesn’t matter if they’re trained or not (possibly outside of PvP it does - not totally certain). The exact numbers vary slightly between qualities of monsters, I’ll list them below.
Bringing that back together
Looking at the formula again:
- Damage dealt = attack stat * move power * relative toughness * lower form buff * elemental modifier * variance
Lets do Cyclozar attacking Mechaviathan with chrono killer (0.7 power).
- Damage dealt = 5710 * 0.7 * [5700/5225] * [1] * [1] * variance
= 5710 * 0.7 * 1.09 * variance
= 4360 (±10%)
= 3924-4797
Mechaviathan has 4278 health so is (4797-4278)/(4797-3924) = 59.5% chance of being one-shot
For this thread I won’t go into any more details than this example. Let’s move onto the important section for now…
Lower form defence buff
So let's continue from the example above and do both the second form and first forms of Mechaviathan...
Cyclozar attacking 2nd form Mechaviathan (Subliathan).
- Damage dealt = 5710 * 0.7 * [5700/5225] * [0.74] * [1] * variance
= 4360 * 0.74 * variance
= 3226 (±10%)
= 2903-3550
Subliathan has 3437 health so is 17.4% chance of being one-shot
Cyclozar attacking 1st form Mechaviathan (Leviapedo).
- Damage dealt = 4360 * 0.577 * variance
= 2515 (±10%)
= 2263-2767
Leviapedo has 2821 health so is 0% chance of being one-shot
As can be clearly seen with these three examples, legendaries become a bit tankier in their lower forms so the moves which are just about one-shotting them have a lower chance to. What matters is the relative health and defence as they are in their lower forms. For each monster quality it is as follows (note: the calculation here = percentage health of final form / “lower form buff”):
| Quality | 1st form tanking | 2nd form tanking |
|---|---|---|
| Epic | 1.15x | 1.08x |
| Super epic | 1.15x | 1.09x |
| Legendary | 1.15x | 1.08x |
| Mythic | 1.17x | 1.09x |
There isn’t a huge difference, but things go a bit ridiculous on the mythics when first forms still have high damage moves because final form mythics are naturally tanky with their high health and these first forms are even tankier than that, at only 6 cost to the team! In fact, mythics have lower than usual health in the earlier forms which slightly cancels out the bigger difference they have in defence. In terms of how much tankier overall they are similar to the other qualities but they take less damage in numbers.
For example, ignoring type advantage of Cyclozar on Y Ddraig Goch a chrono killer on the first form (Armordrake) deals only 1908 damage on average. That’s pathetic considering it should do 3895 on average to a full defence monster.
What I think is WRONG with the calculation (lower forms)
So to be clear, the bit I think is wrong in the damage calculator is this “lower form buff” factor. I think it may even be a mistake in the way it is coded.
current form max trained defence / final form defence
This bit I can kind of understand. It stops untrained and unevolved monsters from dying too easily by effectively counteracting the lower health they have compared to when they’re fully evolved. However, this number is then squared… for no reason at all. It’s this squaring which makes the unevolved monsters take less damage than the final forms.
Personally I think the game would be better without this factor at all. There’s already the “relative toughness” bit which means unevolved monsters effectively have their final form defence. Why do they also need an extra buff to counteract the lower health??
To me it almost looks like there were two people coding this and they each took a different approach to make unevolved monsters survive better. One added a factor that meant their lower defence is irrelevant and the other added a factor that buffs their defence. Then some miscommunication was made so they didn’t realise both had been applied and actually buffed unevolved monsters to tank better than final forms!
@Dev_VKC @Dev_BRD
Tl;Dr Please remove the factor that lowers the damage dealt to unevolved monsters by (current form max trained defence / final form defence)^2. At the very least remove the squaring - this is what causes lower forms to actually be tankier than their final form!
