🏆 Neo Monsters tier list (see first post) 🏆

[MVP_Octopus]

Hi @Killerdog not to rush you cause I know you’re busy, but when’s the list getting updated?(new monsters getting added to the list)

[kabylian]

Hey @Killerdog sorry to spam you i just wanted to say j hope you put cyclophina S , ans you changed a bit your mind abour hee

[Mr.X]

As for the mythics

Voidress Moves to A
XYZ-999L moves to B
Nightingale move to A ( insta purify and guaranteed kill that cant be redirected and negate the revenge) i feel it should be S- but i keep it at A
Aoi A
Rhinedragon A
Luna A
Huskegon D
Soral S-
Harleking S-
Botan-Douj A
Coretta B
Arachnodrake B
Maeve S
Kunomi B
Kanna B
Haneri A
Asmodia S+
Hazuki S+

[kabylian]

Im sure he did this at least once

[Killerdog]

Thanks guys for the input and the discussion. It’s really nice seeing the activity here. I don’t mind the pings at all. I especially enjoyed seeing the email pop up including this line…

@NMEduck

There’s no way rosegeist is better than scorpiogeist lol

Funnily enough, this is exactly one of the reasons why I moved it from S to S+… I do genuinely think it’s stronger. Take the nostalgia glasses off for a second (remember that Scorpio has been nerfed 3 times since it was actually broken):

• similar speed (60% vs 49%)
• similar defence (full attack vs standard attack)
• both auto-poison all and raw (although Rosegeist doesn’t have to be)

Then where it differs is the active moves. Scorpiogeist can kill two on the first turn, but then it’s completely out of play and continues with 200TU double sweeping. So it’s got a bigger initial impact but then is much weaker. Rosegeist “kills” at 100-130TU on the first turn, with a chance at a 70TU kill and then does continual 130TU double sweeping. It also comes with the flexibility to push an enemy back, can handle defence buffed enemies, can set up kills for teammates and can kill regardless of poison after the first turn. All of which makes it far more reliable than Scorpio and a better monster to have on the battlefield.

All that considered, Scorpio is only worth considering over Rosegeist for the end-game, where all you need is a big impact and if your monster goes out of play it doesn’t matter because you’re losing anyway if your big impact monsters haven’t done enough to let you clutch a win. Stun converter also plays into that big impact idea, because it’ll potentially let you get extra kills on the first turn, but further forward in a team the chrono weakness might make Scorpio way too easy to kill.

Rosegeist you can basically play anywhere in a team. Auto-poison all is extremely powerful and its got very good, reliable sweeping power that handles all the stuff we meet nowadays (e.g. defence buffs). I think it’s a perfect example of a top notch PvP legendary sweeper in 2023. It’s quite surprising how much it’s slipped under the radar.

[NMEduck]

@Killerdog

Take the nostalgia glasses off for a second

Ah yes, the nostalgia glasses of the dozen or so top 1 finishes various players have had with scorpiogeist. That’s obviously carried by deathgazer, but you’d be hard pressed to find any good rosegeist team that doesn’t also have gazer so same thing. You also shouldn’t underestimate the difference between 60% and 49% speed when both die so easily.

Rosegeist must’ve slipped under my radar because of it being slow, easy to kill, and having relatively low impact when it gets turns. I’m not sure what happened to your standards for 2023 legendary sweepers, but having venom chrono killer with standard attack and a single target poison chomp as first sweeping options is terrible, at least when we’re concerned about S and S+ tier.

@Killerdog

Then where it differs is the active moves. Scorpiogeist can kill two on the first turn, but then it’s completely out of play and continues with 200TU double sweeping. So it’s got a bigger initial impact but then is much weaker.

It can also deal good damage to all four and chain kills if there’s stun. Rosegeist’s comeback potential is a fraction of what scorp can do. Even though it has more hp and standard attack, it’s still ridiculously easy to kill if that’s ever a priority. Scorpiogeist being more frail and weak to chrono killer more than justifies having a first turn impact that’s magnitudes above what rosegeist can offer.

@Killerdog

All that considered, Scorpio is only worth considering over Rosegeist for the end-game, where all you need is a big impact and if your monster goes out of play it doesn’t matter because you’re losing anyway if your big impact monsters haven’t done enough to let you clutch a win.

Should that really knock it down so much when almost everyone uses scorpiogeist in the endgame? I honestly don’t even know if 1% of the times I see scorp nowadays are when it’s outside the endgame. Take centaureon for example. It’s only S+ tier in the endgame but that’s not enough reason to lower it to S tier.

@Killerdog

Auto-poison all is extremely powerful and its got very good, reliable sweeping power that handles all the stuff we meet nowadays (e.g. defence buffs).

Really? You won’t even be able to charge double bloodcrave against defense buffs when your options are venom chrono killer and poison chomp. You have low tu sweeping that does medium damage or 110tu sweeping that probably doesn’t deal that good damage either. When I think of S+ tier sweeping for legendaries, I imagine high damage sweeping for multiple targets or a single target that’s spammable. Swift terrorize is awesome tho.

Edit: Oh yeah rosegeist is also stunnable so you need to have stun prot in order to not lose control sometimes. That’s not disqualifying for S+ tier, but it certainly doesn’t look good when its competition is something you use for stun prot and to brutalize your opponent when you get control.

@Myst

She is better than scorpio in only one aspect that scorpio is weak to cent and rose isn’t. Otherwise comparing rosegeist with scorpio doesn’t make sense. Rose is A maybe.

A seems kinda low. I would mention that while cent is a hard counter to scorp, it’s still a soft counter to rosegeist because of the stun and purify.

[Myst]

She is better than scorpio in only one aspect that scorpio is weak to cent and rose isn’t. Otherwise comparing rosegeist with scorpio doesn’t make sense. Rose is A maybe.

[GMagic]

I mean this as kindly as possible, but why do you guys care so much about the tier list getting updated? It doesn’t affect your ability to use the monsters in any way!

[Kadeko]

Well, the tier list does give us which mons are mostly used, and what’s the best mons to use.
But, in my opinion… It depends on what strategies they’re using.
I saw that Ankoudragon didn’t even get in the A/S list for legendary mons… But, my team is wrecked to the root because of that annoying Guardian Execute/Bloodcrave.

And Tenebris, I was surprised it didn’t get into A/S lists… They can be dangerous if combined with some reviving moves, maybe.

In the first post, KD explain how he rates the mons, and furthermore he add “The following may not be true for all monsters.”

[kabylian]

when you fall in love with a monster you want it to be rated well

[Exu]

Then you push it up the list, which causes a lot of people to hatch it, everyone starts using it and it gets nerfed

[LemonSqueezy]

@kabylian

when you fall in love with a monster you want it to be rated well

Yeah I’m the opposite There are some I think should be higher but I’m

[kabylian]

They nerf whatever they qant anyway ,some S+ stay untouched

@LemonSqueezy

There are some I think should be higher but I’m

Give me namea i will hatch for them

[EMI_Eklypz]

#hellfox

[LemonSqueezy]

Ah yeah I’m open about that And Y Ddraig Goch because it’s Welsh

[lebowquade]

I love Scolopendragon, even when he was first introduced and rated a D/E. Then he was given Unmovable and bumped all the way to S/S-. Which is a massive bump!

… But still nobody uses him as far as I can tell. Maybe I’m wrong but I never see him played, neither PvP or PvE. So despite him being high in the list in both categories, he is rarely used. I see e.g. Wraithost or Lionheart 10x more.

So, it isn’t universal. And they still haven’t touched the design for Carmilla, so “overused” or "overpowered’ does not guarantee a rework. (Which is fine because I love Carmilla.)

[Exu]

Scolopendragon is a gimmick monster and a one trick pony. It’s not consistent enough for high level PvP. In PvE it’s much better because playing AI is not the same as playing a real player. Is it really in S- tier for PvP? I would put it in B tier. Just because it’s really bad if it can’t get a kill on first turn.

Lionheart is good only in lower tiers of PvP. It’s practically shut down with one poison touch. Wraithhost is more useful because it has entrance control, however it’s also countered hard by poison.

And about Carmilla, she will always be at high risk for a nerf.

[Killerdog]

@NMEduck

Rosegeist’s comeback potential is a fraction of what scorp can do.

I appreciate the long post and I expected no less with how you view the two monsters. However, I wanted to quote this bit to be clear… Rosegeist is absolutely not a comeback monster and I didn’t try to say as such. It’s a more generic poison sweeper, one for early-mid game that does well because of its flexibility. It reliably gets kills and auto-poison for your team makes all the sweeping more deadly. Scorpiogeist is for poison end-games, that’s where it shines and in that role it clearly does better than Rosegeist.

@Kadeko

Well, the tier list does give us which mons are mostly used, and what’s the best mons to use.

Just to be clear, I 100% do not put a monster higher or lower due to how much it gets used. I also tend to not factor in what the meta is (e.g. if a monster counters the current meta it doesn’t get placed higher) except if it’s a general trend in what’s going on (e.g. let’s say protectors are a big part of the meta and there’s no indication that’s going to change, counters to them will be rated higher). That’s one of the places where I differ a lot to the community. I try to make it a timeless list of how good the monsters are overall. Inevitably that means there are a few outliers of unplayed monsters being high and popular monsters being low.

@lebowquade

I love Scolopendragon, even when he was first introduced and rated a D/E. Then he was given Unmovable and bumped all the way to S/S-. Which is a massive bump!

@Exu

Scolopendragon is a gimmick monster and a one trick pony. It’s not consistent enough for high level PvP. In PvE it’s much better because playing AI is not the same as playing a real player. Is it really in S- tier for PvP?

Scolopendragon got two buffs: unmovable and piercing on the reptile killer move. Both helped it a lot, but what made me come around on the design is I realised there are many ways to set it up: lifeflip enemy, HG enemies and token disruption. If you put a bit of that in your team to set up Scolopen then it happens like maybe 3/4 of the time in PvP. I’ve used it a bunch and it’s very good!

You can further build around it with OoO or any of the usual support pieces like protectors or a single give turn after the initial kill will often guarantee you doing the whole chain.

I don’t recommend it for the front line, but for the early game it’s easy to set up with any of the above mentioned things. My personal setup was bug union. In that you have Mantisamurai OoO, Lunactia enemy substitute and Arachnadiva scapegoat (either to pull attacks away from it, or force attacks into its immobile carapace as it repeatedly heals).

[GMagic]

@Kadeko

In the first post, KD explain how he rates the mons, and furthermore he add “The following may not be true for all monsters.”

My point is, this list has absolutely no bearing on anything. It doesn’t make mons any better or worse than they currently are. Voidress doesn’t get better just because KD moves it up the list.

I’d love to see people be a little more self reliant when it comes to monster evaluating. If you really want a monster to be viewed as good/bad, put it in your team and dominate/suck with it! That will put people on notice. This thread does nothing for your in game experience

That’s my soapbox for the day!

[Kadeko]

@Killerdog

Just to be clear, I 100% do not put a monster higher or lower due to how much it gets used. I also tend to not factor in what the meta is (e.g. if a monster counters the current meta it doesn’t get placed higher) except if it’s a general trend in what’s going on (e.g. let’s say protectors are a big part of the meta and there’s no indication that’s going to change, counters to them will be rated higher). That’s one of the places where I differ a lot to the community. I try to make it a timeless list of how good the monsters are overall. Inevitably, that means there are a few outliers of unplayed monsters being high and popular monsters being low.

I saw people using Charyb multiple times in the PvP.
I thought this list were also covered some monsters who are popular to use as META. My bad, I apologize for my mistake.