# PvP Conclusions - Rebalance Suggestions for Developers **URL:** \ **Category:** Neo Monsters General Discussions\ **Created:** [October 10, 2016, 9:59am UTC](https://www.neomonstersforum.com/t/pvp-conclusions-rebalance-suggestions-for-developers/5398 "2016-10-10T09:59:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Hidan1337](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex015/user_avatar/www.neomonstersforum.com/hidan1337/32/6045_2.png) [@Hidan1337](https://www.neomonstersforum.com/u/Hidan1337)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2016, 9:59am UTC](https://www.neomonstersforum.com/t/pvp-conclusions-rebalance-suggestions-for-developers/5398/1 "2016-10-10T09:59:13Z")
Hey guys starting this topic to see if we can get some information together for the developers for tweaks and improvements of the batchloads of new legendaries that aired into the game recently to try and balance out PvP. **Do note I’m a moderator on this forum but also a player and I’m making this post as a player not moderator, just letting you know its not an official thread by any means.** adding my opinion here: Ziberius Deathgazer needs to go. I understand this will frustrate people that are running the combination but when I can win 42 matches and give up only 2 just because the opponent is using Deathgazer Ziberius and has a higher + value on his ziberius or because someone uses random death roulette n gets lucky (my only 2 losses). I am confident that I am pretty much unbeatable at the moment unless someone runs as mirror type of strategy with Ziberius/Deathgazer which should never ever be the case. most of the time I take out 10 monsters right from the get-go. there’s barely any counterplay available unless you cater a team towards precisely countering this frontline (which leaves you at a loss against pretty much every single other frontline you could think of). It is not even that i’m just killing noob players and teams. I’ve battled the top japanese players and lots of people from NMA and won with 10-0 advantages which is absolutely disgusting. anyway feel free to add your opinion about deathgazer or other setups you might think need some tweaking. I think for one Chronozar his faststrike needs some adjustment because it’s very oppresive for a frontline currently. ---
**Author:** ![monsterana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5e9695/32.png) [@monsterana](https://www.neomonstersforum.com/u/monsterana)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2016, 10:08am UTC](https://www.neomonstersforum.com/t/pvp-conclusions-rebalance-suggestions-for-developers/5398/2 "2016-10-10T10:08:52Z")
Agree on both rebalancing needs. ---
**Author:** ![Klumpi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex015/user_avatar/www.neomonstersforum.com/klumpi/32/6195_2.png) [@Klumpi](https://www.neomonstersforum.com/u/Klumpi)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2016, 10:13am UTC](https://www.neomonstersforum.com/t/pvp-conclusions-rebalance-suggestions-for-developers/5398/3 "2016-10-10T10:13:55Z")
Agree totally in all points. What about giving Ziberius less speed, maybe about 40%. Because with that speed he is pretty much uncounterble. That would solve the Problem i think! ---
**Author:** ![Hidan1337](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex015/user_avatar/www.neomonstersforum.com/hidan1337/32/6045_2.png) [@Hidan1337](https://www.neomonstersforum.com/u/Hidan1337)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2016, 10:16am UTC](https://www.neomonstersforum.com/t/pvp-conclusions-rebalance-suggestions-for-developers/5398/4 "2016-10-10T10:16:32Z")
> [@Klumpi](#): > > Agree totally in all points. What about giving Ziberius less speed, maybe about 40%. Because with that speed he is pretty much uncounterble. That would solve the Problem i think! There’s other ways to bring in deathgazer though. Ziberius is just nice cause he gets a double KO out of it but Firemane or a simple low star sendback monster or even a rockoid to just drop dead can do the same job. and apart from my opener there’s plenty of other openers I have theorized about I can do some pretty nasty stuff with. I just didn’t feel the need to test any of it unless someone could actually fairly without random luck beat me in a battle which doesn’t seem to happen. I think they went overboard with the Deathgazer passive which requires a tweak somewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Klumpi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex015/user_avatar/www.neomonstersforum.com/klumpi/32/6195_2.png) [@Klumpi](https://www.neomonstersforum.com/u/Klumpi)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2016, 10:25am UTC](https://www.neomonstersforum.com/t/pvp-conclusions-rebalance-suggestions-for-developers/5398/5 "2016-10-10T10:25:48Z")
> [@Glenn\\\_Martens](#): > > There’s other ways to bring in deathgazer though. Ziberius is just nice cause he gets a double KO out of it but Firemane or a simple low star sendback monster or even a rockoid to just drop dead can do the same job. and apart from my opener there’s plenty of other openers I have theorized about I can do some pretty nasty stuff with. I just didn’t feel the need to test any of it unless someone could actually fairly without random luck beat me in a battle which doesn’t seem to happen. > > I think they went overboard with the Deathgazer passive which requires a tweak somewhere. mmh, indeed, his passive is OP. Maybe they should change it in something like “randomly one teammate gets instant turn”. Would still be pretty good, but solves the zibelgazer problem ---
**Author:** ![Buckingham](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex015/user_avatar/www.neomonstersforum.com/buckingham/32/5780_2.png) [@Buckingham](https://www.neomonstersforum.com/u/Buckingham)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2016, 10:33am UTC](https://www.neomonstersforum.com/t/pvp-conclusions-rebalance-suggestions-for-developers/5398/6 "2016-10-10T10:33:04Z")
Deathgazer definitely needs toning down, I think though just preventing it being used early in the game is enough. Midgame you can see it coming and play around it, up front you have no chance to react. Chronozar again has the same problem, fine midgame but too strong in the front line.  I think also i’d like to just poke about a couple of monsters. Considering that necromancy is 100% chance now I think it’s worth arguing for aurodragon’s reincarnation to be buffed as well, 30% is extremely low all things considered. Also I think that nebel and cosmodragon both need some love, perhaps something like assisted wave. Death revenge is not as strong as it used to be and they’ve fallen behind on the power curve. ---
**Author:** ![Doc\_Brankijam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e79b87/32.png) [@Doc\_Brankijam](https://www.neomonstersforum.com/u/Doc_Brankijam)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2016, 10:39am UTC](https://www.neomonstersforum.com/t/pvp-conclusions-rebalance-suggestions-for-developers/5398/7 "2016-10-10T10:39:56Z")
Well, i think you made a very important point when saying that you lost because someone elses zib moved first (i presume it was alucard :D). It basically became too much about “who moves first” especially with the spam of stun immune monsters and chronozar. There are a lot of FL able to do some serious damage but they often rely on lets say the same 5-6 monsters. So its either about who has dropped more potions on a monster or who gets motre lucky if both monsters are plus 9. Correct me if i’m wrong but if youre zib would have moved first in the match you lost, i guess there would have been a different outcome. I feel like in the current meta there is a lack of a solid way to comeback once you got behind by one second when the game started and your opponents frontline tactic is actually working. The new rainbow prisma monster could change that, but its too slow. The new tiger has the best passive for changing that, but against the standard stun immune leo frontlines hes useless. Prisma would need icefangs entrance, so you could instantly kill two monsters who have damaged your own team before. Or some sort of “stun immune” killer with the icefang entrance. TL;DR I personally think Win or Lose shouldnt be determined by some random seconds deciding whose monster gets turn first right at the start of the match. ---
**Author:** ![Hidan1337](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex015/user_avatar/www.neomonstersforum.com/hidan1337/32/6045_2.png) [@Hidan1337](https://www.neomonstersforum.com/u/Hidan1337)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2016, 11:11am UTC](https://www.neomonstersforum.com/t/pvp-conclusions-rebalance-suggestions-for-developers/5398/8 "2016-10-10T11:11:38Z")
> [@Doc\\\_Brankijam](#): > > Well, i think you made a very important point when saying that you lost because someone elses zib moved first (i presume it was alucard :D). It basically became too much about “who moves first” especially with the spam of stun immune monsters and chronozar. There are a lot of FL able to do some serious damage but they often rely on lets say the same 5-6 monsters. > > So its either about who has dropped more potions on a monster or who gets motre lucky if both monsters are plus 9. Correct me if i’m wrong but if youre zib would have moved first in the match you lost, i guess there would have been a different outcome. > > I feel like in the current meta there is a lack of a solid way to comeback once you got behind by one second when the game started and your opponents frontline tactic is actually working. The new rainbow prisma monster could change that, but its too slow. The new tiger has the best passive for changing that, but against the standard stun immune leo frontlines hes useless. Prisma would need icefangs entrance, so you could instantly kill two monsters who have damaged your own team before. Or some sort of “stun immune” killer with the icefang entrance. > > TL;DR I personally think Win or Lose shouldnt be determined by some random seconds deciding whose monster gets turn first right at the start of the match. yeah it was Alucard, My Zib was only +6 at the time so he moved first and wiped my team in like 5 moves. if I had gone first I’d have wiped his in the same amount of turns probably. ---
**Author:** ![Arteas](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex015/user_avatar/www.neomonstersforum.com/arteas/32/6225_2.png) [@Arteas](https://www.neomonstersforum.com/u/Arteas)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2016, 11:12am UTC](https://www.neomonstersforum.com/t/pvp-conclusions-rebalance-suggestions-for-developers/5398/9 "2016-10-10T11:12:34Z")
Agree about Deathgazer, but not agree about chance of comeback. Last game I totally lost early game, having about 4 monsters on my back line and opponent have about 11 or 10 and I managed to win with help of horrowclaw, cryptablade and some luck. ---
**Author:** ![crazypary](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/45deac/32.png) [@crazypary](https://www.neomonstersforum.com/u/crazypary)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2016, 11:15am UTC](https://www.neomonstersforum.com/t/pvp-conclusions-rebalance-suggestions-for-developers/5398/10 "2016-10-10T11:15:02Z")
Chronox was supposed created to punch zib combo but gazer ruin it 😂😂😂 ---
**Author:** ![Michael\_N](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/54ee81/32.png) [@Michael\_N](https://www.neomonstersforum.com/u/Michael_N)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2016, 11:16am UTC](https://www.neomonstersforum.com/t/pvp-conclusions-rebalance-suggestions-for-developers/5398/11 "2016-10-10T11:16:15Z")
I agree. On one hand it’s not like the game is crawling with it maybe 1% of people have all the monsters to play that frontline. I’ve not run into it myself luckily. Still nobody (especially Hidan & Alucard) should have a team giving them an auto win in the first move. My solution is to make an event super epic available to everybody average in most ways but with negate passive. So Deathgazer is controlled death revenge can’t hit Leogeist gets a weakness etc. Or would that be too earth shattering? I would like to see it. Edit: actually stun would become a huge problem, maybe there’s a way around that… ---
**Author:** ![crazypary](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/45deac/32.png) [@crazypary](https://www.neomonstersforum.com/u/crazypary)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2016, 11:19am UTC](https://www.neomonstersforum.com/t/pvp-conclusions-rebalance-suggestions-for-developers/5398/12 "2016-10-10T11:19:57Z")
S. Epic version of legendary is kinda bad ugh steamhawk! ---
**Author:** ![Hidan1337](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex015/user_avatar/www.neomonstersforum.com/hidan1337/32/6045_2.png) [@Hidan1337](https://www.neomonstersforum.com/u/Hidan1337)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2016, 11:22am UTC](https://www.neomonstersforum.com/t/pvp-conclusions-rebalance-suggestions-for-developers/5398/13 "2016-10-10T11:22:15Z")
> [@Michael\\\_N](#): > > I agree. On one hand it’s not like the game is crawling with it maybe 1% of people have all the monsters to play that frontline. I’ve not run into it myself luckily. Still nobody (especially Hidan & Alucard) should have a team giving them an auto win in the first move. > > My solution is to make an event super epic available to everybody average in most ways but with negate passive. So Deathgazer is controlled death revenge can’t hit Leogeist gets a weakness etc. Or would that be too earth shattering? I would like to see it. You’d turn the frontline into a kill the opponents negate passive monsters because stun immunity is out of the window but so is stunning entrance and shocking entrance… basically - not a single passive works… so the biggest advantage you can get is to kill the opponents negate passive monster then bring in your shocker legends and stun bombers. stun 4 targets to oblivion and single target focus down a monster. any monster incoming will have his passives negated so nothings stops you from continuing the sweep (not even deaths revenge). you can’t “Fix” broken moves by making other monsters with broken moves. just gotta fix it at the source. ---
**Author:** ![Doc\_Brankijam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e79b87/32.png) [@Doc\_Brankijam](https://www.neomonstersforum.com/u/Doc_Brankijam)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2016, 11:40am UTC](https://www.neomonstersforum.com/t/pvp-conclusions-rebalance-suggestions-for-developers/5398/14 "2016-10-10T11:40:44Z")
So what would be your fixing suggestion then? ---
**Author:** ![Hidan1337](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex015/user_avatar/www.neomonstersforum.com/hidan1337/32/6045_2.png) [@Hidan1337](https://www.neomonstersforum.com/u/Hidan1337)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2016, 11:48am UTC](https://www.neomonstersforum.com/t/pvp-conclusions-rebalance-suggestions-for-developers/5398/15 "2016-10-10T11:48:21Z")
> [@Doc\\\_Brankijam](#): > > So what would be your fixing suggestion then? I had in mind what Buckingham mentioned. base Deathgazers passive on the amount of time he has spent in the reinforcements. that way its not usable to get an insanely unfair advantage in the opening of the match but still a decent passive midgame. I am not aiming at finding solutions to a problem here though, just pointing out what the problems are. I think the developers can work out solutions themselves with sufficient lineup testing. Better so then what we can do since they can do just about anything in a test server. ---
**Author:** ![kocowind](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex015/user_avatar/www.neomonstersforum.com/kocowind/32/5640_2.png) [@kocowind](https://www.neomonstersforum.com/u/kocowind)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2016, 2:06pm UTC](https://www.neomonstersforum.com/t/pvp-conclusions-rebalance-suggestions-for-developers/5398/16 "2016-10-10T14:06:07Z")
When chrono’s passive is stun immune rather than hg, I knew everyone would abuse it in frontline. ---
**Author:** ![Scotty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/91b2a8/32.png) [@Scotty](https://www.neomonstersforum.com/u/Scotty)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2016, 2:57pm UTC](https://www.neomonstersforum.com/t/pvp-conclusions-rebalance-suggestions-for-developers/5398/17 "2016-10-10T14:57:38Z")
Feel like they should replace zibels death roulette with purify or some other low tu move. Do not see a point in lowering his speed since everyone can run the gazer set up with firemane now. Really giving a monster an auto TT was a bad idea. ---
**Author:** ![hawk147](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex015/user_avatar/www.neomonstersforum.com/hawk147/32/6199_2.png) [@hawk147](https://www.neomonstersforum.com/u/hawk147)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2016, 6:34pm UTC](https://www.neomonstersforum.com/t/pvp-conclusions-rebalance-suggestions-for-developers/5398/18 "2016-10-10T18:34:22Z")
> [@Scotty](#): > > Feel like they should replace zibels death roulette with purify or some other low tu move. Do not see a point in lowering his speed since everyone can run the gazer set up with firemane now. Really giving a monster an auto TT was a bad idea. yes and it came because someone moaned because of team turners or too op although they arent… how about changing retribution in: if one of your monsters get killed by opponent, you can use retribution? i mean retribution is some kind of revenge. but should it be a revenge if you killed your own monster by yourself? doesnt fit really… @ hidan what exactly is your frontline? ---
**Author:** ![Zardecil](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex015/user_avatar/www.neomonstersforum.com/zardecil/32/7546_2.png) [@Zardecil](https://www.neomonstersforum.com/u/Zardecil)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2016, 6:40pm UTC](https://www.neomonstersforum.com/t/pvp-conclusions-rebalance-suggestions-for-developers/5398/19 "2016-10-10T18:40:49Z")
His frontline is leogeist, terrordragon, ziberius, poison revenger, deathgazer. ---
**Author:** ![Hidan1337](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex015/user_avatar/www.neomonstersforum.com/hidan1337/32/6045_2.png) [@Hidan1337](https://www.neomonstersforum.com/u/Hidan1337)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2016, 7:57pm UTC](https://www.neomonstersforum.com/t/pvp-conclusions-rebalance-suggestions-for-developers/5398/20 "2016-10-10T19:57:34Z")
> [@hawk147](#): > > yes and it came because someone moaned because of team turners or too op although they arent… > > how about changing retribution in: if one of your monsters get killed by opponent, you can use retribution? > i mean retribution is some kind of revenge. but should it be a revenge if you killed your own monster by yourself? > doesnt fit really… > > @ hidan > what exactly is your frontline? We faced off some minutes ago my IGN is NMA Ggmadara [Next page](https://www.neomonstersforum.com/t/pvp-conclusions-rebalance-suggestions-for-developers/5398.md?page=2)